Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

[tommybhoy]

BAO isn't demanding-at all be it 2D or 3D running with a 290X, it's probably the worst title for comparison tbh, as it's going to take a demanding quality title like Witcher 3 to find out if there is any negative impact as W3 will have some serious performance patches after release.

I think the main point of the story is getting lost over what high end v high end gpu's can achieve in BAO, it's about whether or not the door is firmly closed on any current/future Gamesworks titles access to making future engine patches in co operation with the AMD driver team in regards to implementing better performance.

Don't think AMD users are getting shafted that much.

AMD users aren't takers, we are holding the shaft bud, tommy's mixing it up with the high end Nvidia guys with his £320 290(X).

 

[Rroff]

BAO isn't demanding-at all be it 2D or 3D running with a 290X, it's probably the worst title for comparison tbh, as it's going to take a demanding quality title like Witcher 3 to find out if there is any negative impact as W3 will have some serious performance patches after release.

I think the main point of the story is getting lost over what high end v high end gpu's can achieve in BAO, it's about whether or not the door is firmly closed on any current/future Gamesworks titles access to making future engine patches in co operation with the AMD driver team in regards to implementing better performance.




AMD users aren't takers, we are holding the shaft bud, tommy's mixing it up with the high end Nvidia guys with his £320 290(X).

Didn't pay that much more for my 780 (granted was a today only deal) plus got a nice cooler for the extra

Think tho the discussion above is missing the point a little as there is the unanswered hypothetical question of whether amd cards would infact perform better with optimisations not whether they are underperforming in comparison.

 

[LtMatt]

I do really like the fact that the original article clearly states



and one of Lt Matt's posts clearly states



Bottom line WB are being idiots, but I still fail to see how this is Nvidia's fault, all they do is supply the Gameworks library to the developer, if the developer then decides to ignore AMD and not let them present code to sort out issues, just how is that Nvidia's fault.

You missed the point Bru. Even if the developer was PRO AMD it changes nothing. Even if the developer wanted to suppport and help and AMD and provide optimization, improved tessellation performance and multi gpu scaling they CANNOT because of GameWorks. In fact if you'd just read a bit more of the quote you pulled out...

It's more important to realize that WBM couldn't help AMD optimize the GW functions even if it was falling-down willing to do so.

This has nothing to do with customer support. NV has created a system in which developers have no insight into their own code base. That's vendor lock-in.

Mantle: Optimized for AMD. Does not prevent Nvidia from optimizing its drivers for DX11 games.

GameWorks: Optimized for Nvidia. Prevents AMD from optimizing its drivers for DX11 games.

If you do not understand how these things are different when it's broken down in that fashion, I do not know how to explain it to you. GameWorks prevents AMD from ensuring games run well on AMD hardware. Mantle does NOT prevent NV from optimizing games for NV hardware.

What about IHV optimization a from Vendor 1 that lockout IHV optimization a from Vendor 2? The only way AMD can match this is if the developer agrees to work with them from Day 1 to include AMD optimizations. By the time the game launches, it's too late.

I can't speculate on whether or not NV has baked restrictions into the GW contract because I haven't seen one and don't have visibility on that issue. But I think the central topic -- that GW locks in optimizations for NV but leaves AMD out in the cold -- is a valid one. I'd feel the same way if this was Intel holding the keys to control NV's DX11 performance, or if AMD had created a system that gave them control over Nvidia. Specific optimization for one side or the other is not the same as *preventing* optimization for one side or the other.

Remember, it's publishers making this call more than developers. And that matters for the devs that aren't big enough to call their own shots.

@Rusty ever wondered why Crossfire does not work at all on one of the Assassins IV games? Or why there was no crossfire when Ghosts launched yet it works fine for SLI? You need to look outside the box. If you still had an AMD card you'd realise why GameWorks is currently a bad thing for AMD users. All GameWorks titles.

EDIT

Let us not forget, another GameWorks title Splinter Cell 4 that we have to reply on Nvidia for optimizations for AMD cards...

End result from Nvidias optimization? A 660TI beats out a 7970ghz edition. If people still can't see a problem here, then they must be blinded by brand loyalty.

 

[Final8y]

Good quotes LtMatt.

But you can clearly see the effort by some to change the subject.

 

[Ian Evey]

Regardless whether mantle is open and fully utilised by nvidia , It will still perform better and probably look nicer on amd as that's what it's being designed to use, No one is really kicking up a fuss about it though.

 

[Marine-RX179]

Regardless whether mantle is open and fully utilised by nvidia , It will still perform better and probably look nicer on amd as that's what it's being designed to use, No one is really kicking up a fuss about it though.

You still don't understand the fundamental difference between Mantle and GameWorks...despite it's been mentioned a drozen times in this thread...

 

[eyetrip]

Just woken, so not clear-headed yet, but discovered this thread was still going........

I need to go back and read some stuff, but isn't game works a set of libraries designed for specific features? So flame works is there for people who want awesome flames. Use it or don't, is up to you.

Is this any different from the likes of speed tree? Neither Amd or nvidia will get access to source, but devs can use it to make one particular aspect of what they are doing easier?

 

[LtMatt]

Regardless whether mantle is open and fully utilised by nvidia , It will still perform better and probably look nicer on amd as that's what it's being designed to use, No one is really kicking up a fuss about it though.

Just woken, so not clear-headed yet, but discovered this thread was still going........

I need to go back and read some stuff, but isn't game works a set of libraries designed for specific features? So flame works is there for people who want awesome flames. Use it or don't, is up to you.

Is this any different from the likes of speed tree? Neither Amd or nvidia will get access to source, but devs can use it to make one particular aspect of what they are doing easier?

No one gets assess to the source. Not the devs, not amd just Nvidia. This is the bottom line.

Mantle: Optimized for AMD. Does not prevent Nvidia from optimizing its drivers for DX11 games.

GameWorks: Optimized for Nvidia. Prevents AMD from optimizing its drivers for DX11 games.

If you do not understand how these things are different when it's broken down in that fashion, I do not know how to explain it to you. GameWorks prevents AMD from ensuring games run well on AMD hardware. Mantle does NOT prevent NV from optimizing games for NV hardware.

 

[eyetrip]

Oh no.... Nvidia on top in game works title...

http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/reviews/Gigabyte/R9_280X_OC/19.html

Oh no.... Amd go title Amd way ahead...

http:// http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/reviews/Gigabyte/R9_280X_OC/16.html

Still.... Failing to see problem....

 

[andybird123]

End result from Nvidias optimization? A 660TI beats out a 7970ghz edition. If people still can't see a problem here, then they must be blinded by brand loyalty.

And when mantle comes out mantle games will show the same bias towards AMD cards

The "mantle could work on nvidia" defence is pretty thin, like when? Any dates announced for that yet?

 

[eyetrip]

No one gets assess to the source. Not the devs, not amd just Nvidia. This is the bottom line.

You didn't really answer my question. I understand that.

Most companies with awesome libraries would not open them up.

Is my comparison with speed tree valid?

Like said, need to go read some of this stuff I more detail.

 

[LtMatt]

Oh no.... Nvidia on top in game works title...

http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/reviews/Gigabyte/R9_280X_OC/19.html

Oh no.... Amd go title Amd way ahead...

http:// http://www.techpowerup.com/mobile/reviews/Gigabyte/R9_280X_OC/16.html

Still.... Failing to see problem....

Can you still not see the difference? Man i don't know how else to explain it. Have people lost the ability to read or something? Hitman Absolution is a gaming evolved title sure, but have AMD blocked Nvidia from optimizing their drivers for it? No. Nvidia don't have to rely on AMD from providing optimizations for it, they can do it themselves.

 

[Uncle Petey]

Ignore, deflect! Ignore, deflect!

 

[LtMatt]

And when mantle comes out mantle games will show the same bias towards AMD cards

The "mantle could work on nvidia" defence is pretty thin, like when? Any dates announced for that yet?

You're missing the point though. Mantle is not going to affect Nvidia's DX11 performance. Its not going to interfere or block them from providing performance optimizations for DX or Mantle. Its not a closed library. Theres a big difference there.

You didn't really answer my question. I understand that.

Most companies with awesome libraries would not open them up.

Is my comparison with speed tree valid?

Like said, need to go read some of this stuff I more detail.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but no i don't believe its accurate. Devs are locked out from providing optimizations as well. So even if a Dev was PRO AMD and wanted to help amd improve things they cannot because of GameWorks.

 

[Final8y]

You still don't understand the fundamental difference between Mantle and GameWorks...despite it's ben mentioned a drozen times in this thread...

Indeed, Mantle is an API that is separate from DX11 that does not stop the dx11 path of the game form being optimized for hardware that is not Mantle compatible.

GameWorks is not s low level API, its stuff that sits on top of DX11 and there is no separate path.

 

[eyetrip]

Can you still not see the difference? Man i don't know how else to explain it. Have people lost the ability to read or something? Hitman Absolution is a gaming evolved title sure, but have AMD blocked Nvidia from optimizing their drivers for it? No. Nvidia don't have to rely on AMD from providing optimizations for it, they can do it themselves.

No, what am failing to see right now is where nvidia are the evil overlords.

As far as I can see game works is a set of libraries for specific tasks. It doesn't replace dx11, hence either company can still do optimisations for dx11.

Can nvidia or Amd get access to speed tree code? Or other 3rd party apis that day implement?

Just looks to me like wb were morons, or Amd failed to do something in what they submitted.

 

[Final8y]

No, what am failing to see right now is where nvidia are the evil overlords.

As far as I can see game works is a set of libraries for specific tasks. It doesn't replace dx11, hence either company can still do optimisations for dx11.

Not when the optimization has to coincide with the gameworks Library functions.
So AMD or the developer will have to guess with trial and error.

The developer will say well its playable on AMD so not going to bother to even try as it will cost more time and money.
AMD will try the best they can to optimize the driver while blind folded from seeing into the library, who knows how much better it could have been if they could see.

 

[LtMatt]

GameWorks is not an API its stuff that sits on top of DX11 and there is no separate path

No, what am failing to see right now is where nvidia are the evil overlords.

As far as I can see game works is a set of libraries for specific tasks. It doesn't replace dx11, hence either company can still do optimisations.

Can nvidia or Amd get access to speed tree code? Or other 3rd party apis that day implement?

Just looks to me like wb were morons, or Amd failed to do something in what they submitted.

That's the thing, AMD can't do optimizations. Even at driver level they're severely limited in what they can do because of GameWorks library. As a result amd performance, tessellation optimization, multi gpu scaling lies in the hands of Nvidia. As Assassins IV and Ghosts will show, things like crossfire won't work and because of that AMD get the blame. Infact its because of GameWorks. Only Nvidia can access and optimize for GameWorks, it blocks AMD from doing so at Game Code or Driver level.

Regarding WB and AMD, i guess you missed this quote from the Author, which ive posted several times already.

WB Montreal refused game code updates and improvements when AMD attempted to contribute them. The actions of the studio, however , are secondary to the shape of the program and it's impact.

It's more important to realize that WBM couldn't help AMD optimize the GW functions even if it was falling-down willing to do so.

And having given WBM a month to reply, and multiple emails, plus talked to AMD about the situation, I think any statement will be CYA.

But since you want more info.

When AMD contacted WBM in October and offered to contribute code to improve tessellation and multi-GPU scaling, they were given three days to do so. AMD sent the code for both fixes over and was subsequently informed that the code would not be included.

That was early November. WBM has gone radio silent since.

You could call that hearsay, and you'd be right. That's why I don't lean on it. I present two statements I can personally verify and a third I have no reason to distrust:

1). WBM did not return my emails.
2). WBM couldn't optimize the GW libraries, even if it wanted to. (Meaning the greater issue exists and is problematic regardless of developer friendliness to AMD).
3). AMDs ability to improve Crossfire or tessellation without WBM's assistance is limited.

 

[Uncle Petey]

B, b, b, but mantle....

 

[LtMatt]

B, b, b, but mantle....