OcUK Dadsnet thread

[ahar]

Whilst personal experiences are lovely and all that, they're not great evidence for deciding public health initiatives.

Given your patronising manner and this quote ...

People are pretty stupid at the end of the day.

... I'm really very glad that you're not the paediatrician that my kids will ever see.

Given you're a medical professional, I find it difficult to believe that you're unaware of the balance that public health professionals are trying to make in promoting breast feeding. BPAS has a good summary in case your god complex has overtaken your clinical responsibility
(https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/breastfeeding-and-formula-feeding/):

"The wealth of literature on the health benefits of breastfeeding versus formula feeding strongly suggests that breastfeeding has a relatively protective effect against certain infections. However, when this effect is quantified, it is appears small. Meanwhile other claims about breastfeeding, such as those related to IQ or behaviour, are so strongly influenced by wider socioeconomic factors that it is very difficult to isolate feeding method as the cause.

While it is legitimate to say that, all other things being equal, breastfeeding is the 'healthier' option, it is not legitimate to overstate claims about the health properties of breastfeeding or to use these as a way to restrict women's choices about how to feed their babies. Nor is it legitimate to deny that there are some very real disadvantages to breastfeeding, which is why most mothers continue to rely on formula feeding in the early months."

 

[Minstadave]

Given your patronising manner and this quote ...



... I'm really very glad that you're not the paediatrician that my kids will ever see.

Given you're a medical professional, I find it difficult to believe that you're unaware of the balance that public health professionals are trying to make in promoting breast feeding. BPAS has a good summary in case your god complex has overtaken your clinical responsibility
(https://www.bpas.org/get-involved/campaigns/briefings/breastfeeding-and-formula-feeding/):

"The wealth of literature on the health benefits of breastfeeding versus formula feeding strongly suggests that breastfeeding has a relatively protective effect against certain infections. However, when this effect is quantified, it is appears small. Meanwhile other claims about breastfeeding, such as those related to IQ or behaviour, are so strongly influenced by wider socioeconomic factors that it is very difficult to isolate feeding method as the cause.

While it is legitimate to say that, all other things being equal, breastfeeding is the 'healthier' option, it is not legitimate to overstate claims about the health properties of breastfeeding or to use these as a way to restrict women's choices about how to feed their babies. Nor is it legitimate to deny that there are some very real disadvantages to breastfeeding, which is why most mothers continue to rely on formula feeding in the early months."

I'm not really sure what you're trying to convince me of. Breast feeding is beneficial yet hard? That's exactly what I said.

Personal experience is not good evidence for guiding public health drives, that's pretty obvious.

The actual benefits of breast feeding I've already mentioned, bot that fussed in normal babies compared to other high risk groups. However its important to understand whilst the individual benefit to a child is small, the small benefit (particularly to infection rates, allergy and probably obesity rates) is massive on a population scale.

People are stupid. You think this is wrong? I'm regularly stupid, make irrational decisions or bad decisions, that's being human. Why were breast feeding rates low on the UK historically, fashion and marketing mostly. I'd rather have evidence guide peoples choices than fashion and multibillion dollar formula industry.

I've seen numerous failure to thrive babies, Mums struggling to breast feed, babies made unwell due to the pressure to breast feed at all costs. Doesn't change the fact that encouraging breast feeding is still the right thing to do based on the evidence that is available.

 

[Minstadave]

What's HIE?

I may be getting you confused with someone else. Someone on here had a really sick baby with either hypoxic injury or PPHN.

 

[Kreeeee]

.

 

[Minstadave]

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/baby-georges-story.18850576/

PPHN, not HIE, my mistake. Thought he'd had a rough time.

 

[robj20]

Hypoxic Ischemic Encephalopathy

Then no he didn't have that.

 

[Minstadave]

Then no he didn't have that.

No I got my wires crossed, PPHN and HIE are the two major things that go wrong with term babies, I'd remembered it wrong.

 

[theone8181]

Personally I like the Darwin approach with regards to choice of seatbelt and vaccinating kids, problem will sort itself out eventually.

 

[Casdawer]

So a couple of weeks ago I got some great news from my wife that we are expecting our first baby!

Had our scan on Saturday and he/she appears to be doing very well.

I've got a mixture of emotions at the moment ranging from super excited to worried about how the hell I'm going to cope with a child

I'll be relying on you guys to see me through this!

 

[gonda]

So a couple of weeks ago I got some great news from my wife that we are expecting our first baby!

Had our scan on Saturday and he/she appears to be doing very well.

I've got a mixture of emotions at the moment ranging from super excited to worried about how the hell I'm going to cope with a child

I'll be relying on you guys to see me through this!

Congrats dude! we've got our 20 week scan in a couple of weeks, still haven't gotten my head around the fact that it's actually happening!

 

[Oxide™]

So a couple of weeks ago I got some great news from my wife that we are expecting our first baby!

Had our scan on Saturday and he/she appears to be doing very well.

I've got a mixture of emotions at the moment ranging from super excited to worried about how the hell I'm going to cope with a child

I'll be relying on you guys to see me through this!

3 weeks to go here - still feeling the same as you

 

[Beerbaron]

So a couple of weeks ago I got some great news from my wife that we are expecting our first baby!

Had our scan on Saturday and he/she appears to be doing very well.

I've got a mixture of emotions at the moment ranging from super excited to worried about how the hell I'm going to cope with a child

I'll be relying on you guys to see me through this!

Congrats. I think every first time dad feels like that, i know i did. You learn to adapt to the big change pretty fast

 

[LewisRaz]

So a couple of weeks ago I got some great news from my wife that we are expecting our first baby!

Had our scan on Saturday and he/she appears to be doing very well.

I've got a mixture of emotions at the moment ranging from super excited to worried about how the hell I'm going to cope with a child

I'll be relying on you guys to see me through this!

Congrats mate!


I am currently with a 20month old that is still not walking!

Doctors arent concerned as she is miles ahead with speech and other things but damn its getting depressing going places where 9 month olds are walking and my girl is still crawling away.

 

[Devrij]

So a couple of weeks ago I got some great news from my wife that we are expecting our first baby!

Had our scan on Saturday and he/she appears to be doing very well.

I've got a mixture of emotions at the moment ranging from super excited to worried about how the hell I'm going to cope with a child

I'll be relying on you guys to see me through this!

Congrats dude, it's a hell of a journey. The scans are great. I used to be secretly glad when our daughter wouldn't line up to be measured so we could spend more time watching. I felt exactly the same right through until she was born. You'd be amazed how quickly you adapt once they're out.

Definitely the most meaningful thing I've ever done (feels that way anyway). Had my girl for the weekend while my missus went to visit some friends and we had a blast being silly and dancing etc. It's pretty awesome

 

[Diagro]

Congrats mate!


I am currently with a 20month old that is still not walking!

Doctors arent concerned as she is miles ahead with speech and other things but damn its getting depressing going places where 9 month olds are walking and my girl is still crawling away.

Be happy... A walking baby is a... Dangerous baby lol

 

[RoboCod]

Congrats mate!


I am currently with a 20month old that is still not walking!

Doctors arent concerned as she is miles ahead with speech and other things but damn its getting depressing going places where 9 month olds are walking and my girl is still crawling away.

Yeah, don't compare! Your child is amazing in her own rights as you are already aware. She'll get there

 

[Andybtsn]

Congrats mate!


I am currently with a 20month old that is still not walking!

Doctors arent concerned as she is miles ahead with speech and other things but damn its getting depressing going places where 9 month olds are walking and my girl is still crawling away.

My 1 year old can't even crawl yet, nor even feed himself finger food! He's a right lazy one.

 

[McPhee]

That doesn't work though, breast feeding really is best and people really do need a bit of pressure to breast feed. We had some of the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world in the 90s and 00s.

Legislation to curb the multi million dollar formula advertising and a genuine public health drive to improve infants health seems legitimate to me. Breastfeeding isn't easy, there will be some tears and struggles and I have absolutely seen some mums struggle to breast feed to the detriment of their babies and their own health.

Saying just let people choose is plain stupid though. Just like saying let people choose to use seatbelts. People are pretty stupid at the end of the day.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that breastfeeding is bad, or that people shouldn't be encourage to do it?

It seems the problem is more one of where to draw the line? I'm currently sat in a hospital with our three week old. She's being fed EBM so the consultants can track how much she's getting, as she is still over 5% below birth weight. At the moment, the EBM is about half of what she needs, and we've been told to top up with formula. Yet even now there's people piling on the pressure; nurses, breast feeding "experts", who seemingly know better than the consultants. It's a latch problem. Or it's because the pump isn't as good as the baby's suckle, and all can be solved by just feeding her normally (as if she hasn't been fed normally for the past 24 days...). Or the missus isn't spending enough time on the pump despite nothing more coming out.

We have no intention of ditching breast feeding. Formula is being used (hopefully) temporarily. But the constant nagging is ridiculous. Advocate it, sure. Advise on how to do it better, again great. But knowing where to draw the line is also important. Getting enough food is always going to trump the type of food given.

 

[Minstadave]

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that breastfeeding is bad, or that people shouldn't be encourage to do it?

That's exactly what was being suggested on the previous page. Not putting any pressure on Mum's, letting people just do whatever they want.

They really shouldn't have woman crying because "breast is best" when the woman wants to formula feed.

They need to ditch the breast is best stuff. Yes there are some benefits, formula had benefits as well.
Just shouldn't make out that breast is the preferred option should be totally up to the parents.

I was suggesting there is a balance and this should be guided be evidence, not just one or two peoples personal experiences.

I agree with you - Where that balance lies is tough, and there probably isn't a one size fits all answer to what is best for wmeach family. This is something I spend every working day trying to get right.

Breast feeding rates are on the up after years of some of the lowest rates in Europe and that is the direct result of supporting/pressuring families, education and regulation of the formula industry and their marketing. This is a good thing.

 

[McPhee]

That's exactly what was being suggested on the previous page. Not putting any pressure on Mum's, letting people just do whatever they want.



I was suggesting there is a balance and this should be guided be evidence, not just one or two peoples personal experiences.

I agree with you - Where that balance lies is tough, and there probably isn't a one size fits all answer to what is best for wmeach family. This is something I spend every working day trying to get right.

Breast feeding rates are on the up after years of some of the lowest rates in Europe and that is the direct result of supporting/pressuring families, education and regulation of the formula industry and their marketing. This is a good thing.

I took the meaning a different way; irritation with the dogmatic "breast is best" message. And I can sympathise with that. The facts aren't really being presented in an even way, at least from what I've seen these past few weeks. The information is given in a loaded way, to try and coerce people toward breast feeding. And if that doesn't work, more pressure is applied.

It's like the decision on how to feed your child was taken while you were out of the room, and the staff now have the task of convincing you they made the right decision.

To give a brief example, we were told all of the upsides of breast feeding on multiple occasions. Most of them were true. Some were questionable. I asked about some of the downsides, which were promptly dismissed. Those included jaundice, and the potential for high weight loss if the milk doesn't come through soon enough or in a large enough quantity. These downsides were played down. Yet now our daughter has jaundice and has lost a chunk of her birth weight, we're told it's quite normal for breast fed babies, and that we shouldn't worry.

Even as someone in favour of breast feeding, I hate discussing it. There's too many utter looneys about. And most advocates will not present a realistic picture. They're not trying to help people make an informed decision; they're trying to sell an idea.