OcUK Photo Comp - Season Six : Round Two - "Still Life" RESULTS

[Helium_Junkie]

should have made me a judge

It's not the judges fault, it's just the way the whole process is and has been for probably the whole time the competitions have been run. There hasn't been any weighting on theme, the final result is the sum of all factors.

 

[Windle]

Edit : After pondering a bit, although i think the winning shot was an excellent photo i'm definately agreeing with people who are saying that there's something wrong with the way it's judged (or not judged) on Theme.

If you take Round 2, where the "Theme" was a particular type of Art. In this case Still Life, which has a rigid definition then people breaking the mold should have been marked down on theme which doesn't appear to have happened. y'hak's shot is almost the oppposite of Still Life, as it's a frozen movement picture yet still ranked him 11/63 in Theme alone. Fair enough in rounds where the theme is open to Wide interpretation but i think for a theme like this it was a fairly rigid interpretation.

And before people accuse me of being bitter i'm not fussed about my score. I think my shot was rather poor technically and agree with my overall ranking. However i think there are some shots which should have been higher up based on the theme than they actually ended up.

 

[Puz]

Ouch!
"still life
n., pl. still lifes.
Representation of inanimate objects, such as flowers or fruit, in painting or photography."

Jellybabies count ?

 

[morgan]

I suppose its a weakness in the judging system. There should really be some weighting towards theme.

I would tend to agree with this. Maybe we should be open to suggestions on this. After all if the theme doesnt carry more weight it makes the system rather subjective.

Surely the technical and impact areas should be marked with the theme in hand to create a fair comp?

I'm not quite sure what you mean?... technical and impact are two seperate critera - of which theme has no bearing?...

 

[::: CooliceT ::]

yey im in the top 3

glad you let me keep my entry in, will enter the next one soon,

gratz to the winner aswell. thats a tricky shot to undertake

 

[Windle]

I'm not quite sure what you mean?... technical and impact are two seperate critera - of which theme has no bearing?...

If he means what i think he means, then he's saying that in Rounds like this where there's a fairly set theme that if people are deviating from this theme then the Theme mark should be fairly low, but the Impact theme should be higher as it will make more of an impact. Thus maybe bringing the 3 areas of judging a bit more in balance. Ie in my eyes, Y'haks photo should have been pretty low on Theme but pretty high in both Technical and Impact. As it is currently he done pretty high in Tech and Impact and then pretty well again in Theme.

 

[Windle]

Jellybabies count ?

Well they are inanimate (We should hope!) so yes, yours was one which stood out in my eyes as falling under Still Life. A slight deviation from the norm of a still life. The only thing "still" about Y'haks photo is the fact his camera has frozen the picture in motion.

 

[morgan]

If he means what i think he means, then he's saying that in Rounds like this where there's a fairly set theme that if people are deviating from this theme then the Theme mark should be fairly low, but the Impact theme should be higher as it will make more of an impact. Thus maybe bringing the 3 areas of judging a bit more in balance. Ie in my eyes, Y'haks photo should have been pretty low on Theme but pretty high in both Technical and Impact. As it is currently he done pretty high in Tech and Impact and then pretty well again in Theme.

Surely thats a debate about whether 'theme' itself should be far more heavily weighted? ie of the total mark, the weighting could be:

Tech: 30%
Impact: 20%
Theme: 50%

(just an example btw..not my suggestion)

 

[Scuzi]

Edit : After pondering a bit, although i think the winning shot was an excellent photo i'm definately agreeing with people who are saying that there's something wrong with the way it's judged (or not judged) on Theme.

If you take Round 2, where the "Theme" was a particular type of Art. In this case Still Life, which has a rigid definition then people breaking the mold should have been marked down on theme which doesn't appear to have happened. y'hak's shot is almost the oppposite of Still Life, as it's a frozen movement picture yet still ranked him 11/63 in Theme alone. Fair enough in rounds where the theme is open to Wide interpretation but i think for a theme like this it was a fairly rigid interpretation.

And before people accuse me of being bitter i'm not fussed about my score. I think my shot was rather poor technically and agree with my overall ranking. However i think there are some shots which should have been higher up based on the theme than they actually ended up.

I agree entirely. Whilst the winning shot was excellent, there is something wrong if an entry that in no way represents still life manages to win a still life themed competition.

Maybe in future rounds, if it isn't blatently obvious that the entry is relevant to the theme, an explanation of the photographers views on why it is relevant to the theme should be required. That way, the subjectiveness can be taken into account.

 

[Johnny|lucidcomposure]

Sorry Ive started a big debate huh.

When I take a photograph I take it with the theme in mind rather than building something about my technical ability or even impact.

 

[SteveOBHave]

I agree entirely. Whilst the winning shot was excellent, there is something wrong if an entry that in no way represents still life manages to win a still life themed competition.

Maybe in future rounds, if it isn't blatently obvious that the entry is relevant to the theme, an explanation of the photographers views on why it is relevant to the theme should be required. That way, the subjectiveness can be taken into account.

Totally agree - stunning photo but I don't think that as the main motivator for the competition on any given month is 'theme' then the weighting of the scoring should be towards exactly that. To do otherwise negates the need to pay attention to the theme at all. IMO it is keeping to the theme that makes the competition interesting through the photographers interpretation.

 

[SteveOBHave]

Sorry Ive started a big debate huh.

When I take a photograph I take it with the theme in mind rather than building something about my technical ability or even impact.

I think you are well within your rights, it's a very valid comment IMO.

 

[Windle]

Surely thats a debate about whether 'theme' itself should be far more heavily weighted? ie of the total mark, the weighting could be:

Tech: 30%
Impact: 20%
Theme: 50%

(just an example btw..not my suggestion)

Yes something similar to this is what it should go. Additional thought needs to go into how people are marked on theme. I think it's fairly obvious with some themes if it's widely open to interpretation as opposed to a rigid theme. Take this months, there are plenty of options for a "Spring Time" photo as it is open to interpretation. However if you were to have a theme like "Portrait" your limited to the type of photos you can take.

As Fstop11 has just said, the whole point of having a Theme is to give you the initial basis for your photo. Once you have a theme you can work out your ideas, and then you bring/apply your technical skills to obtain a good photograph around the theme. Theme comes first, if this was a Camera Club battle then if somebody put a shot like Y'haks in it would be hammered for not following the theme even if it did well on the technical side of things.

 

[Helium_Junkie]

I quietly agree that frozen motion doesn't mean still life to me (or the dictionary). And with theme having an equal weight this does allow technically great pictures to win regardless of their relevance, which it seems a lot of us agree is not how it should work.

Can we ask the judges/organisers then to discuss a weighting on theme relevance for future competitions please?

Also, they could kindly explain how they reached such a high grade (18/23) for theme in this case. It could clear up the issue in some minds and maybe sway others opinions also

 

[Puz]

When I take a photograph I take it with the theme in mind rather than building something about my technical ability or even impact.

Ditto. The theme is the main reason this competition exists. Otherwise we'd just have a monthly competition for "Best picture of anything you took during the month". Kinda defeats the purpose really ! This forum has photographers of various abilities and theming it gives everyone a chance to participate. Although saying that people with better tech ability should have the wherewithall to come up with a decent slant on the theme and stand out from the crowd. (i.e anyone who comes up with a 'Spring' entry that doesn't involve a flower of some sort ! )

As with all these competitions personal opinion, subjectiveness and interpretation of each judge is how its going to be scored. What one likes, another dislikes, it's just being human ! But for this to work as a 'Themed' competition we need weighting to be introduced. How this works is up to the judges and subject to the masses approval.

 

[xolotl]

I quietly agree that frozen motion doesn't mean still life to me (or the dictionary). And with theme having an equal weight this does allow technically great pictures to win regardless of their relevance, which it seems a lot of us agree is not how it should work.

Can we ask the judges/organisers then to discuss a weighting on theme relevance for future competitions please?

Also, they could kindly explain themselves as to how they reached such a high grade (18/23) for theme in this case. It could clear up the issue and sway others opinions also.

Yak got 18 theme points. Which compared to other rounds that isn't particularly high. Averaged out each judge would have given 6 theme points out of 10. Not a particularly brilliant score but above the average of 15.8.

I think one of the problems this round was that there were not any stand out amazing pictures. While the standard of entries was, as always splendid relative to other rounds statistically they weren't as good.

For example the average score this round was 44.7 yet for round one it was 52.1. Had there been a photo that encompassed an excellent interpretation of the theme as well as excellent technical and impact scores then that would have won. It just so happened that in this round Yaks excellent Technical and Impact scores made up for his lower theme score. Had the overall standard of entries been higher this may not have happened.

I don't mean that in an offensive way its merely a comment on the statistics.

As for changing the way the photos are scored I don't think its necessary. This system has been working fine for six seasons and this is the first time that a caused a problem of this magnitude. However for the judges it may be worth looking up the classical definitions of a theme before starting the judging.

 

[Johnny|lucidcomposure]

You say its fine for 6 seasons but I am willing to bet thats only because no one has said anything.

I have always had mixed feelings towards this forums comp. I do agree with winning shots sometimes and then others not so much. I really dont think its a human judge problem. Yes some like things others dont and thats more than fine but I feel the structure and rules of the system are causing this what I feel is an reaccouring error

Dispite who wins and who looses it surely still needs to be weighted to theme otherwise I simply cant see the point. If for the next comp I go out of my way to make a shot bleed impact and use some really techinical methods and heavy processing I am going to score about 20 points for them regardless of what I am shooting?

 

[growse]

I've a suggestion, which I'm just going to throw out there.

Rather than weighting the scores in a preset manner, I would suggest a system whereby the theme score defines the limit on the other scores. For example, if I take a technically and brilliantly impacting photograph which has no relevance to the theme, I may score 11 on the theme. Under my system, the tech and impact score could be no higher than 11. Assuming maximum marks in the tech and impact department, I would get 33.

This would then prevent people scoring low in the theme but very highly in the tech and impact. It would force people to think about improving their theme mark, first and foremost, with tech and impact being considered after the theme relevance is considered.

Any thoughts?

 

[morgan]

I've a suggestion, which I'm just going to throw out there.

Rather than weighting the scores in a preset manner, I would suggest a system whereby the theme score defines the limit on the other scores. For example, if I take a technically and brilliantly impacting photograph which has no relevance to the theme, I may score 11 on the theme. Under my system, the tech and impact score could be no higher than 11. Assuming maximum marks in the tech and impact department, I would get 33.

This would then prevent people scoring low in the theme but very highly in the tech and impact. It would force people to think about improving their theme mark, first and foremost, with tech and impact being considered after the theme relevance is considered.

Any thoughts?

thats clever... like it.

 

[SteveOBHave]

^^^^Ditto