***Official 2010 F1 thread***

[Glaucus]

How ocme this season it's taking so long to confirm drivers. usually it starts mid season and by now most drivers are signed.
As far as I have seen the only confirmed ones are

Ferrari
Felipe Massa
Fernando Alonso

Red Bull Racing
Mark Webber
Sebastian Vettel

McLaren Mercedes
Lewis Hamilton

Renault F1
Robert Kubica



Or have I missed some signings.

 

[sunama]

The problem was that the official announcement of Alonso to Ferrari was delayed. Once it was confirmed that he was going there, everybody else began discussions with prospective drivers for 2010.

My only concern is the No.2 seat at McLaren should go to a driver who can is capable of mixing it with Massa. Otherwise, next year could be another repeat of 2008, where Hamilton is left alone to dual against 2 Ferraris.

They've got until late December to confirm their drivers, as drivers are usually released by their current teams, to their new teams, on January 1st. No rush.

 

[FrankJH]

Hamilton outscored everybody in the 2nd half of the season).

.

Its just as valid to state that Button didnt need to outscore Hamilton, so why try?

(I mean look at what happened to Hamilton trying to get points he didnt actually NEED to get in 2007 - he blew his title chance two or three times)

Its pretty dumb to blame Button for not outscoring Hamilton when it would have been totally un-necessary and very risky to try

An intelligent sportsman, analyses the game and its rules. He then puts together a strategy that enables him to win. Button did this with Brawn.

Edited with for up to date reasoning

My only concern is the No.2 seat at McLaren should go to a driver who can is capable of mixing it with Massa. .

scewed logic strikes again lol

No the No2 seat should go to somebody who can potentially win the WDC not aim for another team's No2 driver, thats complete bs ( maybe for Torro Rosso or Williams who cant go for the WDC or WCC then your logic works, but not for a probable grid leading team)

as a team they should aim higher than what they need otherwise its more likely to fail

god forbid, but what happens if something happens to Lewis over the winter / during the season like Massa and he has to miss a large number of races (or even Webber with his broken leg, but it happens in March rather than Jan), you have to find someone capable of leading the team while Lewis is away not a No2 who is only there to pick up more points than a competitors No2

Im also not entirely convinced that Massa will end up as No2 - yes Ferrari management probably paid a fortune for Alonso, and therefore he is theoretical no1 - even in writing , but after this year there will be a lot of empathy for Massa in the garage / pit lane /factory which could easily work against Alonso even aclimbatising to the team

 

[Alibaba99]

How ocme this season it's taking so long to confirm drivers. usually it starts mid season and by now most drivers are signed.
As far as I have seen the only confirmed ones are

Ferrari
Felipe Massa
Fernando Alonso

Red Bull Racing
Mark Webber
Sebastian Vettel

McLaren Mercedes
Lewis Hamilton

Renault F1
Robert Kubica



Or have I missed some signings.

Webber has a contract for next year at RBR but currently isn't confirmed. He is mainly at that team due to being managed by Flavio (which is currently a problem) and the Renault tie in. RBR don't appear to be using Renault next year.

 

[dannyjo22]

IN 2005, Ferrari produced a dog of a car. And it was in this season, where MS drove to the limit of the Ferrari. When on the limit, MS was able to score 63% more points than his team-mate.

MS didn't need to have outright No.1 status to beat the likes of Irvine or Barrichello. He could've demolished them if he had to race them. However, it was team effort and to increase the likelihood of title wins, Ferrari used a No.1 and No.2 driver setup..

Yeah a team mate that was contracted to lose to him. I dont think anyone takes into account how that would affect the 2nd drivers effort and motivation.

Yes MS could beat those drivers through a season but he wouldn't have gotten half as many points against them if all things where equal.

Obviously as you always go on about Jenson not having the self confidence to take on another big driver, well there is no one with less self belief than MS then. He had to have a driver contracted to be a whupping boy and ran away the first time A. A driver with any real class joined the team and B. When the gadgets were being removed.

A driver with any real belief in his abilities doesn't need guarentees about status but MS knows all his advantages came from within that little group of players electronic advantages.

 

[Alibaba99]

Button beat Hamilton, Kimi, Massa and Alonso, when they were all in very poor cars unable to compete for wins. Obviously McLaren cured this problem towards the end of the season, but by then it was too late (note that once the car was corrected, Hamilton outscored everybody in the 2nd half of the season).

You've said this yet repeatedly state the following.

I'm saying that Alonso beat MS to 2 WDCs. I'm saying that he and Hamilton were equally matched at McLaren. I'm saying that he is currently the most decorated F1 driver on the grid. The other drivers dont boast these credentials. I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

In 2005 Schumacher had a poor car and was never in contention for the WDC. It's more correct to say that Alonso has beaten Schumi once, and Kimi once. Kimi has also beaten Alonso the once, as have Lewis and now Jenson.

 

[JRS]

The one year MS didn't have a massive car advantage he won nothing, until only 6 cars contested a race.

Um....I hate to interject with this (because I know it'll get shot down for no sensible reason), but I don't recall him having a massive car advantage through the 2003 season. And he (just!*) won that.

Nor did he have a massive car advantage in 1995 - the Williams was certainly a better handling car and had the same power plant. And Schumacher himself proclaimed that the '95 Ferrari was a bloody good car and could have challenged for the title (which makes you wonder why Ferrari didn't just build an updated 412 for '96 to race with rather than turn out with the F310 development car).






* - with an 8th place in the final round. Much like a certain L. Hamilton. Just before any of the usual suspects start up again....

 

[FrankJH]

Nor did he have a massive car advantage in 1995 - the Williams was certainly a better handling car and had the same power plant.

Of course there was no underhanded bending of the rules on the Bennetton that year lol

 

[dannyjo22]

2003 the car way way ahead of any of the field with electronic gadgets. No suprise considering all the years they had to perfect it running the stuff illegally, which is beyond doubt. The world and his wife knows the only reason they allowed the stuff back in the first place was to try to even up the playing field because at the time they couldn't catch them. The engineers at ferrari at the time are gods to have come up with a car that knew where it was on the track and alter so many parameters for each and every corner. That though doesn't make a great driver.

1995 is the only year I'd accept MS didn't have a car advantage or the team wasn't cheating their arses off, that I can remember off the top of my head.

Oh well this has nothing to do with 2010 so I think it should be dropped.

 

[JRS]

Of course there was no underhanded bending of the rules on the Bennetton that year lol

In 1995? I'd love it if you'd point to some examples. Or were you thinking of 1994, which featured plenty of examples as to why Flavio Briatore getting banned from F1 is a Very Good Thing™?

dannyjo22 - if the F2003-GA was so superior to the rest of the field and packed full of illegal electronic driver aids, how come Schumacher very nearly didn't win the title that year? That car looked skittish and flighty from the moment it was introduced. It ate tyres as well. That's why so many folks were shocked when the F2004 came along and lowered the race lap record at the '04 Aussie GP by ~3 seconds - the 2003 Ferrari really wasn't all that amazing on the performance front. Certanly not compared with the F2002 and F2004. As I recall, it ended up only taking part in 12 races - the F2002 was used for the first few races in '03, and Ferrari made sure the F2004 was ready right from the get-go in'04.

 

[Duke]

Their 04 car was epic (and this is coming from someone who doesn't really like the team ).

 

[FrankJH]

In 1995? I'd love it if you'd point to some examples. Or were you thinking of 1994, which featured plenty of examples as to why Flavio Briatore getting banned from F1 is a Very Good Thing™.

Could have sworn they where cheating their asses off in 1995 also but maybe Im remembering it wrong

 

[sunama]

Webber has a contract for next year at RBR but currently isn't confirmed. He is mainly at that team due to being managed by Flavio (which is currently a problem) and the Renault tie in. RBR don't appear to be using Renault next year.

I think its a forgone conclusion that Webber will be in the team with Vettel for 2010. Much like Button at BrawnGP.

 

[Skeeter]

I think its a forgone conclusion that Webber will be in the team with Vettel for 2010. Much like Button at BrawnGP.

I though Red Bull had already confirmed webber and vettel? Webber isnt managed by Flav any more.

And the Button/Brawn thing is far far far from a foregone conclusion. If there is only one thing I can be sure of, its that Brawn cant afford what Button wants now, being champion, and there are a number of other teams on the grid who can. Although, if I was Button, the only other seat on the grid I would be interested in would be the McLaren. If Kimi takes that seat, Button should stay at Brawn, if not, I would love to have 2 british champions in a british team!

 

[Glaucus]

I hope Button stays at brawn.

I want to see brawn and button take it on for a second season. We all know how good brawn is and it good be an epic fight next season with both brits winning many races.

 

[sunama]

Although, if I was Button, the only other seat on the grid I would be interested in would be the McLaren. If Kimi takes that seat, Button should stay at Brawn, if not, I would love to have 2 british champions in a british team!

It would certainly be intriguing to see Hamilton and Button battle. I would love to see it. However, for Button, a move to McLaren would be career suicide. To race in a car designed completely around Hamilton, who happens to be one of the fastest drivers in F1, would mean Button would be at a massive disadvantage, right from the start. As a result Hamilton would probably demolish Button in exactly the same way he demolished Heikki.

Button is comfortable at Brawn. And like someone said earlier in this thread, he stuck it out through the hard times and now that its good at BrawnGP, it would be silly to leave.

Another thing that we are not considering is the Rosberg factor. If Rosberg does move to BrawnGP, would Button feel comfortable/confident racing in the same car as Rosberg, on equal terms?

Personally, if I were Button, I would lower my salary in return for outright No.1 status and preferential treatment, just as all reigning World Champions should get (something that Alonso didnt get at McLaren, to the detriment of both team and driver, that year).

No.1 status I think is more important than a high salary.

 

[Skeeter]

It would certainly be intriguing to see Hamilton and Button battle. I would love to see it. However, for Button, a move to McLaren would be career suicide. To race in a car designed completely around Hamilton, who happens to be one of the fastest drivers in F1, would mean Button would be at a massive disadvantage, right from the start. As a result Hamilton would probably demolish Button in exactly the same way he demolished Heikki.

Button is comfortable at Brawn. And like someone said earlier in this thread, he stuck it out through the hard times and now that its good at BrawnGP, it would be silly to leave.

Another thing that we are not considering is the Rosberg factor. If Rosberg does move to BrawnGP, would Button feel comfortable/confident racing in the same car as Rosberg, on equal terms?

Personally, if I were Button, I would lower my salary in return for outright No.1 status and preferential treatment, just as all reigning World Champions should get (something that Alonso didnt get at McLaren, to the detriment of both team and driver, that year).

No.1 status I think is more important than a high salary.

Im going to dissagree, on the fact that, in my opinion, Button is a good driver, but no match to Hamilton or Massa etc, and while the Brawn was a fantastic car this year, it was based on about 12 months more development time to get a car right for the new rules. I predict that next year we will see normality return with Ferrari and McLaren back at the front, and Brawn will struggle to get out of the mid field. I do not think Brawn will be a title contendor next year (I would love to be proved wrong) and I think Button knows it. HE stuck with the team through the hard times to build up a good relationship, and has been rewarded with a title. Sticking with them again just out of loyalty would be more suicidal than moveing to a team where he could get beaten. The way I see it, Buttons choices next year are to stick with Brawn, and get beten by Hamilton and co for £3m a year, or move to McLaren, get beaten by Hamilton and co, for £10m a year...

I think being alongside a team mate that will push you hard will be much better for Button and Hamilton. Hamiltons very near title in his first season ws partly due to being pushed by Alonso, and Button wouldnt have been so good this year I doubt if Barichello hadnt risen to show himself as a real rival. The first person you have to beat is your team mate, and if your team mate is considered the best, its a good benchmark to have.

How McLaren would cope would be interesting. They are very keen to portray that they are completely even in their team, but having Hamilton, the team number one, alongside the champonship number 1, would make for some interesting internal team politics.

But regardless of anything, I think the idea that Button should stay at Brawn simply out of loyalty is rubbish. Hes a world champion, he would be stupid to take less pay to stay with a team that was good last year. Do we even know if Brawn have sorted enough sponsorship to be able to afford to race next year?

 

[sunama]

BrawnGP will be racing next year. I don't think there is any doubt about that. The simple fact that they will be racing as reigning World Constructors and Drivers Champions would bring in a good amount of sponsorship to have them racing in 2010.

Regarding BrawnGP's performance in 2010: until the cars are unveiled in January and testing begins, we won't know just how competitive the BrawnGP or McLaren card will be. The probability of McLaren building a better car than BrawnGP is high, but is not guaranteed. You only have to look at what happened in 2009, to know that you shouldn't write off BrawnGP.

The reason why I say he should stay at BrawnGP is that if he moves to McLaren, he will be humiliated. He will have No.1 on his car, but his teammate (who has No.2 on his car), will be getting preferential treatment and will be ahead of him, most of the time, on the track and on the time-sheets. A reigning World Champion shouldn't have to be subjected to that sort of humiliation. I'm not a Button fan, but even I wouldn't want to see him being demolished by Hamilton and berated in the newspapers, for his lack of pace. The reigning World Champion should never have to go through that.

Furthermore, if he moves to McLaren and Hamilton does demolish him, Button's career could well be finished. Getting No.1 status for himself, in whichever team he races with in 2010, is VERY important and is totally achievable. This will ensure that he has the best chance to do well in whichever team he is in and it also virtually guarantees that he won't be outperformed by his team-mate, which in turn keeps his reputation in tact.

 

[JRS]

until the cars are unveiled in January and testing begins, we won't know just how competitive the BrawnGP or McLaren card will be.

Even then - testing is one thing, racing is another. I seem to recall someone on here forwarding a theory that RBR wouldn't be a championship contender this year due to their car testing so late compared with BMW getting their car running very early. And look how that turned out.

Eh?

 

[sunama]

Even then - testing is one thing, racing is another. I seem to recall someone on here forwarding a theory that RBR wouldn't be a championship contender this year due to their car testing so late compared with BMW getting their car running very early. And look how that turned out.

Eh?

Although to be fair to BMW, they did start the season well, just as they had been in pre-season testing.

Similarly, in pre-season testing BrawnGP were the class of the field and continued to show this when the season began.

Similarly, McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be struggling.

Generally, whatever happened in pre-season testing continued into the season.

In most cases, when you release your car late, you tend to struggle when the season begins. However, this season, all the rules seemed to be thrown out of the window. I strongly believe that this season was a freak and that the next few seasons should all follow the normal rules (ie. release your car late and you will pay dearly; if your car was bad the previous season, it will continue to be bad the following season; and so on).

The most freakish thing that happened was that BrawnGP were fast, immediately, from lap1 onwards and were able to beat teams who had over 500 miles of testing in the bag. That sort of thing just doesnt happen.