******Official Star Citizen / Squadron 42 Thread******

[Deleted User 234324]

Yeah the tech on show is game changing literally, server meshing like this has never been done before. No wonder it's taken them 6 years to get it working.

To see it in use and scalable already is great, they said initially there will be 2 servers, one for Stanton and another for Pyro on the 31st, but they will eventually be able to split them down even further to were one planet or moon could be running on multiple servers, or a single space station could be split over 4-5 servers in one giant universe with 10s of thousands of players.

Imagine all 100 systems in the game with millions of players all connected to the same servers, this tech makes that dream a possibility.

 

[Felon]

Anyway, making a judgement about SC based on an incomplete alpha without considering the potential it has is just completely missing the point.

It's not really an Alpha though, you can't have a game where you've taken $600M from customers over 11 years, selling ships for $2000 and call it an Alpha, you just can't - only somebody who's drunk on Koolaid would consider this an alpha.

And $600M even over that amount of time is a lot of money, the problem is it's been incredibly poorly managed - they've been throwing features and content in at 100mph to encourage revenue, without fixing basic things - so you end up with a huge monolithic complicated pile of tech debt that can't be fixed. A huge pile of tech-debt that's being kept alive by glitzy promo videos and now influencers - because they need that money more than ever to keep the party going, because it's a very expensive party.

Imagine all 100 systems in the game with millions of players all connected to the same servers, this tech makes that dream a possibility.

Yeah..

I mean - I can tell you right off the bat, (because it's my day job) that what they're proposing to do at any sort of scale, is very very difficult and very very expensive, building a system like that - would burn you through likely $tens-of-millions per month on public cloud, maybe a little cheaper doing it in house - but with huge Capex expenditure.

You'd burn through $100-200M in an instant (or over a year doing it in cloud), building a system like that, which actually works properly at scale.

Spoiler

I helped to build one of the largest global gaming networks for eSports, for hundreds of millions of players, so I know a few things about this sort of thing and how much it costs, the costs are insane.

 

[Columbo]

I backed this for SQ42 back in 2015 (I think), and I jump in every 6 months or so to test progress before uninstalling again almost immediately.
I've maybe got 20-30 hours max in Star Citizen over the years (and still dont like it one bit tbh) but have to say the recent update has me somewhat hopeful that SQ42 will be a banger.

Star Citizen is clearly not for me, which is of course fine as I wanted the single player modern day Wing Commander and at least for now this looks like it may deliver....once the polishing phase is done in 2028

 

[Deleted User 234324]

Spoiler

I helped to build one of the largest global gaming networks for eSports, for hundreds of millions of players, so I know a few things about this sort of thing and how much it costs, the costs are insane.

So you have a good idea where a large chunk of that $600 million went then at least.

The assets alone across 5 studios, state of the art motion capture and photogrammetry systems, dozens of A list actors for dialogue as well as the likeness of some major players in the movie industry would have cost a fair chunk of change. They haven't spent $600 million on Star Citizen, I wouldn't be surprized if barely 1/5th of their budget has gone towards SC directly, even the engine cost could be considered an SQ42 cost rather than SC.

 

[jonneymendoza]

It's not really an Alpha though, you can't have a game where you've taken $600M from customers over 11 years, selling ships for $2000 and call it an Alpha, you just can't - only somebody who's drunk on Koolaid would consider this an alpha.

And $600M even over that amount of time is a lot of money, the problem is it's been incredibly poorly managed - they've been throwing features and content in at 100mph to encourage revenue, without fixing basic things - so you end up with a huge monolithic complicated pile of tech debt that can't be fixed. A huge pile of tech-debt that's being kept alive by glitzy promo videos and now influencers - because they need that money more than ever to keep the party going, because it's a very expensive party.



Yeah..

I mean - I can tell you right off the bat, (because it's my day job) that what they're proposing to do at any sort of scale, is very very difficult and very very expensive, building a system like that - would burn you through likely $tens-of-millions per month on public cloud, maybe a little cheaper doing it in house - but with huge Capex expenditure.

You'd burn through $100-200M in an instant (or over a year doing it in cloud), building a system like that, which actually works properly at scale.

Spoiler

I helped to build one of the largest global gaming networks for eSports, for hundreds of millions of players, so I know a few things about this sort of thing and how much it costs, the costs are insane.

Why is not really an alpha?

Is the game feature complete? Nope.

Did CIG put a gun to my head and others forcing us to buy a carrack for £600 ish? Nope.

 

[TNA]

I backed this for SQ42 back in 2015 (I think), and I jump in every 6 months or so to test progress before uninstalling again almost immediately.
I've maybe got 20-30 hours max in Star Citizen over the years (and still dont like it one bit tbh) but have to say the recent update has me somewhat hopeful that SQ42 will be a banger.

Star Citizen is clearly not for me, which is of course fine as I wanted the single player modern day Wing Commander and at least for now this looks like it may deliver....once the polishing phase is done in 2028

Yep. If SQ42 delivers then money well spent I say. It looks so much better than Starfield it's unreal. But I will try and keep my expectations low.

Just get SQ42 done and move most the dev team on the sequel I say. They can still have a small team working on SC to keep you guys happy and keep those ship sales up

 

[Raumarik]

I'm loving Starfield if I'm honest, but then again I feel like I've had my moneys worth out of Star Citizen already with the likely ~1000 hours I've spent messing with it over the years.

Still like this bug I encountered SEVEN YEARS ago, even then it still looks so much better than Starfield

Posting this just to annoy Worzel who's never forgiven me : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwrGy3nfVrM&start=265

 

[jonneymendoza]

Yep. If SQ42 delivers then money well spent I say. It looks so much better than Starfield it's unreal. But I will try and keep my expectations low.

Just get SQ42 done and move most the dev team on the sequel I say. They can still have a small team working on SC to keep you guys happy and keep those ship sales up

Some of teh devs have moved onto SC

 

[Noxia]

Don't do yourselves a disservice. Setting a really low benchmark with Starfield (which I thoroughly enjoy).

 

[TNA]

Don't do yourselves a disservice. Setting a really low benchmark with Starfield (which I thoroughly enjoy).

Man. I set it low and it still disappointed me in many ways. So much copy paste it is unreal. 1000 planets but only around 10 really.

Wish they never bothered with ship/outpost building. That should have been a dlc added later or something.

 

[PinkFloyd]

It's not really an Alpha though, you can't have a game where you've taken $600M from customers over 11 years, selling ships for $2000 and call it an Alpha, you just can't - only somebody who's drunk on Koolaid would consider this an alpha.

Except it literally meets the definition of Alpha. So call it something different yourself if you want, but it's an Alpha.

Yes it's been badly managed over the years, yes the feature creep has been frustrating for those early backers. But as a result of the delays and increased spending, we're eventually going to get a much bigger game than was originally scoped. Personally, I'm fine with that.

 

[Deleted User 234324]

The scenario we have here is no different to that of Larian Studios.

Thousands of people bought BG3 Early Access, and they only got a tiny portion of the first act, and could only level up a few times, they had a very open and transparent development with Baldur's Gate 3 with it being in early access/alpha for over 3 years before release. This allowed them to really focus in on getting everything right before its release and we all know how well that went.

Obviously 3 years is a little shorter than the decade+ we have with SC, but again considering the scope, most of the 4.8 million are probably fine with that, specially after this weekends Citizen Con.

 

[Felon]

Except it literally meets the definition of Alpha. So call it something different yourself if you want, but it's an Alpha.

There aren't really any strict definitions of what an alpha is vs what it isn't, these things are generally made up on the fly these days.

That said - there's nothing wrong with releasing a paid game, in an alpha state - provided the developers aren't complete idiots and just start promising the full 9 yards, when the basic game features are broken and not getting fixed.

A good example of how to do alpha releases, would be satisfactory - their commitment to players, combined with communication and moving things from an experimental branch into a stable branch in phases has worked very very well for them.

Yes it's been badly managed over the years, yes the feature creep has been frustrating for those early backers. But as a result of the delays and increased spending, we're eventually going to get a much bigger game than was originally scoped. Personally, I'm fine with that.

Nah, virtually impossible in my opinion.

The thing (SC) has gotten too big, bloated and full of bugs/problems that it wouldn't make sense to fix it now. The amount of cycles it would cost - to go back and do a 'no-mans-sky' on it, on a game the complexity and magnitude of SC wouldn't make financial sense. Not whilst they're still shovelling coal into the hype-train, they're just burdening themselves with endless heaps of stuff they can't deliver properly - whilst charging crazy money for in game purchases (ships).

I personally think they'll run out of road and go bust, not sure when - but I can't see it continuing like this forever, not unless someone else takes over and comes up with a sensible strategy.

 

[Curlyriff]

It's not really an Alpha though, you can't have a game where you've taken $600M from customers over 11 years, selling ships for $2000 and call it an Alpha, you just can't - only somebody who's drunk on Koolaid would consider this an alpha.

Sorry but it's an alpha. It doesn't matter how the moment has come or how long. They literally been still making features for the game which is alpha. That isn't how Dev works and you know it. If they had got to the same point now but only taken 2yrs and spent £5 million you are saying it's okay to be an alpha but because that isn't true it's not.

That's dumb and you just appear to be wanting not to call it what it is because you are displeased it's taken so long and cost so much.

You mention in another post there isn't any strict Alpha these days, you know why? Because companies like EA and the such used Alpha to sell games early to people and claim the masses are helping test when they were already feature complete and in the polishing phase that Amy actual software dev would say is beta. It just that it's been utilised as marketing for almost a decade now "come join the alpha" blah blah completely taking away from what it has meant for decades prior.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Sorry but it's an alpha. It doesn't matter how the moment has come or how long. They literally been still making features for the game which is alpha. That isn't how Dev works and you know it. If they had got to the same point now but only taken 2yrs and spent £5 million you are saying it's okay to be an alpha but because that isn't true it's not.

That's dumb and you just appear to be wanting not to call it what it is because you are displeased it's taken so long and cost so much.

You mention in another post there isn't any strict Alpha these days, you know why? Because companies like EA and the such used Alpha to sell games early to people and claim the masses are helping test when they were already feature complete and in the polishing phase that Amy actual software dev would say is beta. It just that it's been utilised as marketing for almost a decade now "come join the alpha" blah blah completely taking away from what it has meant for decades prior.

Well said. I played a so called alpha build of fifa 24 aka fc 24. They practically released the same game a month later ha!

 

[Curlyriff]

I mean - I can tell you right off the bat, (because it's my day job) that what they're proposing to do at any sort of scale, is very very difficult and very very expensive, building a system like that - would burn you through likely $tens-of-millions per month on public cloud, maybe a little cheaper doing it in house - but with huge Capex expenditure.

You'd burn through $100-200M in an instant (or over a year doing it in cloud), building a system like that, which actually works properly at scale.

Spoiler

I helped to build one of the largest global gaming networks for eSports, for hundreds of millions of players, so I know a few things about this sort of thing and how much it costs, the costs are insane.

In regards to this. If they are operating with say 10 million players in game but it's limited to 100 per server so you've got 100k amount of servers running globally. This is how it would be now of they didn't get SM working etc right.

Now you nest those servers to regions instead where you go say 2.5million people per region to keep things simple but instead you have SM. Theoretically you could reduce your server count because at moment each server needs a full copy of the whole star system in it. With SM you might be holding 200 people in a server instead of 100 people because that server is only authoritative for 1/8th of a stat system and the rest is streamed out. If you multiply that principle then you've suddenly cut your server requirements in half because you are not wasting server resources on elements that are not required and this able to increase the per server capacity of players.

Dynamic server meshing is a step further again because it may be possible to get 300 people in a server say because you are only using the server to be authoritative over say a single city or an unground facility because nothing else is required for those players and this again actually reducing the total server count significantly.

If anything SM should reduce the cost of running their total server requirement which is through AWS.

I'm of course making approx figures up because we don't know details but I am considering a UGF only needs to render that structure in place with the players inside/around it up to say 20kM approx. compared to 100 players all in individual space ships which is of course magnitudes greater in terms of entities and server requirements etc.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Cool video for those who want to find out ways in which to earn the larger ships in game

 

[jonneymendoza]

In regards to this. If they are operating with say 10 million players in game but it's limited to 100 per server so you've got 100k amount of servers running globally. This is how it would be now of they didn't get SM working etc right.

Now you nest those servers to regions instead where you go say 2.5million people per region to keep things simple but instead you have SM. Theoretically you could reduce your server count because at moment each server needs a full copy of the whole star system in it. With SM you might be holding 200 people in a server instead of 100 people because that server is only authoritative for 1/8th of a stat system and the rest is streamed out. If you multiply that principle then you've suddenly cut your server requirements in half because you are not wasting server resources on elements that are not required and this able to increase the per server capacity of players.

Dynamic server meshing is a step further again because it may be possible to get 300 people in a server say because you are only using the server to be authoritative over say a single city or an unground facility because nothing else is required for those players and this again actually reducing the total server count significantly.

If anything SM should reduce the cost of running their total server requirement which is through AWS.

I'm of course making approx figures up because we don't know details but I am considering a UGF only needs to render that structure in place with the players inside/around it up to say 20kM approx. compared to 100 players all in individual space ships which is of course magnitudes greater in terms of entities and server requirements etc.

And dont forget CIG have cosey'd up with AWS/Amazon too so i bet they have got a friends and family discount on server costs too.

You can bet your cat that if they do indeed nail it with dynamic server meshing, that tech will have "AWS" badged all over it for marketing AWS as the best dynamic server you can get.

 

[Curlyriff]

And dont forget CIG have cosey'd up with AWS/Amazon too so i bet they have got a friends and family discount on server costs too.

You can bet your cat that if they do indeed nail it with dynamic server meshing, that tech will have "AWS" badged all over it for marketing AWS as the best dynamic server you can get.

Aye but I don't want to presume anything there so taking at the flat rate/cost as expect at best it's discounted whilst in development right up to gold release for PU. Then AWS want their return accordingly.

 

[humbug]

Asmon is like the chaotic neutral force of gaming he's not interested in being a fanboy, just wants to game and enjoy himself. I'm not surprised he's pretty clueless about SC as he's not streaming it, so it's not a priority to learn about - and a good chunk of his viewers will think it's a scam anyway.

Dunno.... i watched it 3 times... a lot of people asking "What game is this?????" "what Music is this????" Pedro Camacho man.... SC/SQ42 lead composer, as always he's knocked it out of the park. People in the chat posting angel emotes constantly to the music, quite funny.