*****Official Star Wars: The Old Republic Thread*****

This is, and always has been, touted as a story-driven, theme park MMO. Your character has an "epic" storyline which was always going to provide a linear path for you to follow - it's mostly similar to single player RPGs that will have one main storyline and many side-quests you can partake in, as well as the standard theme park MMO dungeon runs, group quests, world / battleground pvp and endgame content. Personally I think there is a place in the market for an MMO that puts story above all else, and it could potentially revolutionise the genre in that manner, so the claims that it's just a revamped WoW-clone in the Star Wars universe seem a little unfair.

How deep does the "epic" storyline go? If its a few epic quests per zone that comprise the storyline for your character, then thats actually the same as many other MMOs which have an epic storyline. LoTRO for example has an epic storyline which provides a linear path for you to follow. To a degree even WoW has an epic storyline which provides you with a path to follow, along with the "standard theme park MMO dungeon runs, group quests, world/battlground pvp and endgame content" , so I can kind of see why some think its a revamped WoW-clone in the star wars universe.

It should be a winning formula for Bioware, as long as it doesnt end up being a flash in the pan frenzy at release with a low retention rate. (to which ends it might be of concern to devs that there are people talking of playing just to finish the story and then not subscribing). As the most important thing in pay per month MMOs is not how many boxes are sold, but how many customers are retained after the initial free time is over, its the subscriptions retained that are where the real cash flow is rather than the x million initial box sales. We've seen more than a few recent MMOs have a massive hype frenzy at release and then 2 months later we have a thread on here and it turns out that most people have already left the game, even those who were crazy mad on the game originally.

Hopefully SWToR wont be one of those though as the genre needs more MMOs which are big hitters, though frankly imo what the genre needs more than anything else is an MMO which veers hugely away from the "norms" of the genre and is a big hit. As a genre its become very very stale in the last 7 years and there is so little innovation, freedom or player choices compared to the MMOs that came in the 7 years prior to that. Sadly I dont think that innovation will come because its a catch 22 situation, make an MMO which is similar to existing ones and people complain that its a X-clone, make an MMO which really does break the mould and people complain that its too different from X. People call for something fresh and different but arent willing to adapt to it when it is fresh and different. Again though, thats a whole other discussion on the genre :)
 
The storyline is excellent and the dialogue is very well written and voiced over. I am apparently playing one of the "weaker" storylines too.

I just completed my first "flashpoint", and I completely agree with everyone else on the beta forum, they are absolutely brilliant! They need a few more checkpoints along the way for when you die, but that is my only criticism. It took 1h 30 to complete, a little longer than it should have since I lacked a full group. I won't spoil it for anyone, but I can't wait for the next one! I hope the endgame raids are similar - if they are, Bioware should do well holding onto subscribers.

In regard to "winning conversations" - basically, you enter a conversation with your group. You then choose what you want to say, and as far as I can tell, you get a dice roll as to whether your choice gets accepted. It works surprisingly well.

Those are my thoughts from today :)
 
The storyline is excellent and the dialogue is very well written and voiced over. I am apparently playing one of the "weaker" storylines too.

I just completed my first "flashpoint", and I completely agree with everyone else on the beta forum, they are absolutely brilliant! They need a few more checkpoints along the way for when you die, but that is my only criticism. It took 1h 30 to complete, a little longer than it should have since I lacked a full group. I won't spoil it for anyone, but I can't wait for the next one! I hope the endgame raids are similar - if they are, Bioware should do well holding onto subscribers.

In regard to "winning conversations" - basically, you enter a conversation with your group. You then choose what you want to say, and as far as I can tell, you get a dice roll as to whether your choice gets accepted. It works surprisingly well.

Those are my thoughts from today :)

Can the dice roll be modified by anything or is it just random? IE. can it be modified by a charisma stat or something like in AD&D?
 
Man, the WoW fanboys are really starting up the flaming.

Its becoming childish. Have you ever heard the phrase "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all!"?

i havent played wow for years and didnt think it was very good. DAOC was my fav. :)
 
Isn't that a bit **** though if you are, for example, wanting to be evil sith dude but every random roll drops you a "good guy" storyline thus gimping a story you are attempting to create?

Or have I misunderstood? :p

In the scheme of things it has very little impact on you. I think I have been lucky that the people I have been teaming with keep selecting the evil options :). Saying that, I have seen no good options selected so far from the "multiplayer conversations", so maybe there are none? I really have no idea.

The feedback on these conversations certainly seems very mixed at the moment, mainly in that people don't want them to appear in any endgame raids.
 
Isn't that a bit **** though if you are, for example, wanting to be evil sith dude but every random roll drops you a "good guy" storyline thus gimping a story you are attempting to create?

Or have I misunderstood? :p

The devs have said say in the flahspoint they've shown you want to kill the captain but your do gooder friend doesn't and he/she wins the roll, you'll get darkside points for your choice and they'll get lightside for theirs regardless of what happens.
 
New player review:

Thoughts and a critique on various aspects of the game world.

Item Enhancement

Top marks for this one Bioware, it's an ingenious mechanic. Rather than having to get whole new items you can swap out components to keep them up to date with your level, it's a great system.

Story

Everyone knows, it works, it's unique, it rocks your socks off.

Combat

Feels very like KOTOR, which is a good thing. Loving the marauder’s sheer brutality at this point. I feel powerful, but as I level up I don't feel like I'm getting more powerful. The tools I'm being given allow me to cope with numbers of enemies that I was taking down at level 5, rather than allowing me to take out multiple strongs or larger groups. Which leads me to my first issue with SWTOR thus far:

Difficulty scaling and enemy variety

This is one thing that is really beginning to get to me in SWTOR. All the enemies are the same. They shoot, or they swing with a melee weapon....that's about it. Almost none of them have grenades, stuns/debuffs/DoT's/knockdowns/heals. The only truly unique fight I've had so far was the Padawan on the Black Talon flashpoint, and it was only one ability, a PBAoE that you had to run away from.

Difficulty scaling should not be limited to making enemies hit harder and have more health, there needs to be an upgrade to the tools that mobs have at their disposal. The most obvious example of this is on the Nar Shaddaa 4 man group quests. Lots of mobs, all with stupid amount of health that you have to chip down while they swing and shoot at you like every other mob encountered thus far. It's not fun, it's not exciting, it's tedious and that's a great shame. They're powerful jedi for goodness sake! These should be dynamic fights that require tactics and adaptation, not the ability to withstand 4 minutes of repetitive combat per encounter.

Social Points

Swing and a miss with this one I feel. Requires huge amounts of points for one level. They aren't farmable as there are a finite amount of conversations to be had and group quests usually only have one at the end, which involves one person getting a whopping 4-8 points. It's entirely down to luck, and as the LFG system is lacking and the group quests are tedious, the motivation to group for anything other than flashpoints is low.

Token/Commendation system

Hit and miss with this one. Probably more along the lines that social points could be. At the end of the area you can choose some powerful rewards for the tokens, so you go into the next area nice and strong. For regular mission areas I think this works well.

Where it doesn't work well is flashpoints. At the end of the Black Talon FP, I had 4 commendations, and the useful items were all about 7-9 tokens a piece. Make it so every member gets one token per boss kill, not one token that everyone has to roll on.

Easily balanced and I'm sure it will be, it was just such a glaring error I felt it warranted comment.

Economy

Seems to fairly balanced at this point, you have to judge what you invest in. You have ample money, but not so much you can gobble up every upgrade you see at every opportunity. Auction House system is a bit dead, but that's to be expected on a testing basis when no one has any idea what anything is worth, or what their items are used for.

Companions

Another superbly implemented system that makes SWTOR unique. Really makes this a Bioware game, and is much better for it. Being able to send companions off to gather and loot for you is a revelation.

Crafting

As a synthweaver I feel the actual equipment crafting/reverse engineering system is a bit off, but can easily be tweaked by including more purchasable recipes and by tweaking their material cost/skill up speed.

My crew have treasure hunting and I'm absolutely in love with. Coming back with cases of cash, loot and companion items for me at the click of the button. Fantastic idea.

Ships

Would be a KOTOR game without them. It's a huge moment when you get your very own ship and robot crafting wench as well as the freedom to roam the galaxy at will, another massive tick in SWTOR's favour, however....

Ship Combat and upgrade

Oh good lord, no. Bad Bioware, that's a very bad Bioware. To have been the first MMO to nearly eradicate traditional MMO level grinding, you then reintroduce it with ship combat. The combat itself is actually quite fun, and makes a refreshing change of pace to the man to man lightsaber swinging. Where it all falls to pieces is in the absolute necessity of upgrades. Without them, anything but the first mission is impossible, so you have to grind that mission out a good 20 times to get some upgrades that allow the other missions to become remotely doable. I appreciate making ship combat difficult, but don't make grinding for upgrades the only way to overcome that difficulty. Terribly disappointing, here's hoping it's fixed pronto.

Lag and technical issues

Has been noticeable, but not awful, and my god I've certainly known worse for MMO's at this stage or development. Nar Shaddaa was a bit of a culprit here, serious clipping and pathing issues; enemies evading or getting knocked out of existence. My companion was getting stuck, lost or randomly killed constantly.

For a story driven MMO, immersion is key, so these issues are more jarring than they perhaps would be in another game. It's something that is sure to be addressed and it certainly isn't so bad as to render the game unplayable.

Warzones and PvP

This is where the lag and frame rate issues we've all been experiencing really hit home. At times it really is unplayable. You engage an opponent, try to keep them pinned and in range as a melee only to have them bounce around the screen or be out of range despite the fact the avatars might as well be dry humping. Other times you'll be engaged by 3 people, attempt to react only to be frozen in place with none of the buttons doing anything and be dead by the time the latency catches up.

Balance wise, most people are lightsaber users, who didn't see that coming? I feel strong, but not too strong. I can defeat my jedi counterparts, and If I can catch a ranged unawares then I'll hammer them down. If I'm caught in the open and they're in cover or my force charge is down, then I'm in trouble. What's good is that there are no quick deaths unless you're engaged by 2-3+ people at once, no one has the power of 3 second kill here, it just doesn't happen. In a 1v1 situation you always have time to react. Ranged players might disagree on the balance issues, I can only speak for my own experience.
CC seems to be the big issue here, no diminishing returns, things like whirlwind that last for ages aren't broken by damage, I person can be held in place by 2-3 people and be unable to do a damn thing but watch their health deplete.

The warzones themselves are on the whole a success, but with one crashing failure. Huttball is atrocious, it might be the lag issues or the fact that most people don't quite understand the mechanics, but nonetheless, it's not a fun game.

The alderaan objective control is a pretty standard affair, but it's well designed and it works, when the lag is calm, it can be a lot of fun. Team work wins the day.

The attack/defend ship invasion is a real winner. Great to see this in an MMO, I'm sure it will be a huge favourite on official release.

Graphics and art

I quite like the art style, wish there was a little more variety in facial types among the various humanoids, everyone looks rather similar, and character creation is pretty bare bones. The graphics themselves are clearly unoptimised, but a bit of polish could see the art really come into its own with a few bells and whistles implemented.




That's all I can come up with for now. Overall I am hugely impressed, despite the many negatives, I see the majority of them as fixable before release. Should these issues be fixed, I can certainly see Bioware receiving my monthly subscription.

The devs have said say in the flahspoint they've shown you want to kill the captain but your do gooder friend doesn't and he/she wins the roll, you'll get darkside points for your choice and they'll get lightside for theirs regardless of what happens.

Thanks for the clarification :)

Edit: Another player review (most seem to say the same things now) -
Having been playing quite a bit since the test opened up, here are my observations so far. Note that as I have primarily been playing a Sith Inquisitor/Sorceror, I don't have a lot to add on the cover system, ranged combat, or other classes as yet.
Good:

1) Combat: On a basic level, the combat is a lot of fun. The whole idea around fighting multiple weaker enemies really channels the Star Wars dynamic and keeps things moving and interesting more than other MMOs I have played where it's all about pulling and taking down one enemy at a time. The sound effects and action are great. I love tabbing around and throwing multilple spells down on different targets, then rushing over to finish someone off with my lightsaber.

2) Story: No surprise here, best story ever in an MMO. Almost equivelent to playing something like KOTOR or Mass Effect in a massive setting. The side missions are also considerably fun. One thing I'd like to see are some story arcs that can be resolved without combat at all, with multiple outcomes dependent on choices made.

3) Voiceovers & conversation system: Looks like not all voiceovers are done, but man, it really makes a difference. I really like the conversation system, though I do think more of your choices should have a real effect on the outcome (For example it would be cool if you could unlock different bonus missions via choices in conversations).

4) Dark Side / Light Side: This is the first time in an MMO where it has actually pushed me to play a 'role'. Trying to get my dark side points as high as possible has resulted in me playing a much more evil character than I normally do, since the nice choice would have negative consequences.

5) Atmosphere: It feels like KOTOR era Star Wars.

6) Codex: I loved this in Mass Effect. Would be cool of some of the entries had video though.

7) Grouping: I like how the roles are more flexible than trad MMOs. I can do a lot of different things with my sorceror and not feel like I am hurting the group.

8) Flashpoints: Only done Dark Talon (or whatever it was called) so far, but it was a blast.

Downsides:

1) Skill/Character differentiation: This is probably the biggest downside for me so far. The lack of ability to customize your character, both from an eyecandy standpoint and a leveling standpoint, is a huge drawback. The advanced skill tree really just doesn't feel like enough to make one Sith Sorceror significantly different from another. A lot more work I think needs to be done here. I have not determined if this is in the game or not, probably not, but one cool feature would be a Fable-like feature where your 'Dark' side character's appearance got progressively more evil over time, and the other way around for 'Light' characters.

2) Bland skill upgrades: I've started to notice that most of my new skills after lvl 12 or so are just really tiny upgrades over my previous one. Like an attack that did 280-316 points is now 295 - 331 points. Blech. And the new powers I am getting are super-niche skills I won't be using very often, like a skill that sacrifices %15 health for %8 force (and nerfs force regeneration!). Maybe this is just a dead spot I'm in but its disappointing. Combined with the bland advanced skill tree, it makes leveling up not all that interesting. This has the added result of making combat a bit dull after awhile, as I am using the same abilities over an over for many levels, rather than integrating new stuff into my arsenal.

3) Bland loot: Since each class has a relatively narrow range of items they can use (I can basically use vibroswords, lightsabers, and light armor), these items should have more to differentiate them than merely stat bonuses. So I can choose between a 63 armor boot that gives +11 endurance, +11 will and +11 perception, or one that has a 63 armor and +7 endurance, +15 will, and +8 perception? Whoopdeedo. Oh, also, I'm sorry, but vibroswords should NOT be as good as Light Sabers. Jedi should be the premier melee combatant in the game and their signature weapon should not be outshown in that department.

4) Crafting: I'm fine with the crafting system in general. My main issue is it seems all but impossible to make much that would be more useful than the drops and easily bought items. If I spent a considerable amount of time working on my crafting skills, I should be able to make items a little better than the average player of my level might find on standard loot drops. Otherwise there is little point.


5) Social functions: As others have mentioned, chat tools need to be improved and we need better LFG options.

6) Group mission enemies: It'd be nice if these weren't just centered around giving the enemies a bazillion hp. Maybe rather than groups of 4 super-buffed enemies, you could fight say, 8-9 with 1 super buffered one.

In all much more good than bad. My big worry is that 'bad' 1-4 are all very important for the long term retention of players. If loot and leveling is dull, people will see little reason to play long term. The good news is that they are all addressable, though I don't know if they will be.

Oh, and please fix 'Whirlwind'. I mean, it helps me ton, but come on it is so broken.
 
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Im loving it and i was right to get excited about it when i heard about this game like 3 years ago:p:D
Done my first flashpoint and it was truly epic, this is the best mmo i have played, and could even be in my personal top 10 games of all time.
 
Im loving it and i was right to get excited about it when i heard about this game like 3 years ago:p:D
Done my first flashpoint and it was truly epic, this is the best mmo i have played, and could even be in my personal top 10 games of all time.

That's positive. As a barometer to that and so people can get some idea of what sort of mmo appeals to you, what would you say was the previous best mmo you ever played (prior to sw:tor taking that place for you) ?
 
No diminishing returns on crowd control, seriously? Hopefully he's just imagining that one, seems like a terribly fundamental mistake to make.
 
The devs have said say in the flahspoint they've shown you want to kill the captain but your do gooder friend doesn't and he/she wins the roll, you'll get darkside points for your choice and they'll get lightside for theirs regardless of what happens.

Ooooh!

That makes more sense thanks :) You pick what you want to happen, but then it rendomly generates from everyones choices what does happen. I misunderstood and thought it randomly assigned what you wanted to happen. Derp me :p
 
The devs have said say in the flahspoint they've shown you want to kill the captain but your do gooder friend doesn't and he/she wins the roll, you'll get darkside points for your choice and they'll get lightside for theirs regardless of what happens.

Still don't like the fact i'd have to play out the darkside version if i don't win the roll, despite i got Lightside points for my choice.
 
It's not KOTOR though remember. It's not like you start off neutral and slide towards the dark or light sides depending on your choices. You pick sith or jedi as a starting class and you're stuck with it.

I don't know what kind of impact the conversation choices are going to have, but I doubt very much turning to the dark side and switching sides is going to be part of it.

It'll probably be more in line with Mass Effect's Nice Guy or Prat system.
 
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