**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

frankmcg said:
Anyone listen to state of the game last night? Just caught up on the podcast. Every korean terran complaining about tvz at the moment apparantly. Only counter anyone came up with was "tell that to MVP" and "this always happens after a buff/nerf, it gets figured out"

Well it's been a month now and no one's figured it out

Just sayin......
Click to expand...

I didn't watch it but I've heard some stupid things people said on it.
Not sure if it came from SotG but I heard IdrA said that the buff dealt with players like MKP who are popular for no reason. IdrA is just jealous that MKP could beat him just using his mouse.

I don't think Terrans will find anything new and I'm still seeing Terrans having to outplay Zerg opponents to actually win when it used to be really even.

I wouldn't listen to anyone on SotG as they're all idiots par Day[9] who knows what he's talking about but wouldn't ever say anythings imbalanced because he's too much of a wimp to.
 
Terrans just need to learn to adapt and try out new stuff, instead of just staying with the same 'right' way to play.
 
nex20 said:
Terrans just need to learn to adapt and try out new stuff, instead of just staying with the same 'right' way to play.
Click to expand...

No.

Terrans already have the most openings and variability in their play as it is.

If anyone finds something that works I can say without a doubt it'll just be something really gimmicky like QXCs bunker build he's been using to deal with the creep.

Even in todays GSL you could tell that Maru didn't know what the hell he was doing. It's hard to decide what opening and strategy you're going for when a Zerg has complete control and vision of his side of the map.
 
nex20 said:
Terrans just need to learn to adapt and try out new stuff, instead of just staying with the same 'right' way to play.
Click to expand...

If my memory serves well, when zerg were most UP and when toss was most UP people would say the same thing, in the end nobody adapted, it's only after the patches to balance things out the win ratings changed.

It's nice of course to say "work things out" but in the past, working out new tactics did not help anybody, watching gsl right now, things are as they always been, no strategies changed for any race.

So far by the looks of it blizz overdone changes and now terran going by statistics are the most UP race, that's the end of it.

Complaining won't change anything though but maybe ease the frustration of the laddering, so let's put all this UP OP stuff to rest, it's a vicious circle of silliness otherwise.

Edit: Now back onto something worth talking about, dat marineking micro in group F was sorcery, sorcery is say!
 
Last edited:
Just laughed my ass off at a Protoss on the NA server.

I was playing Terran and I've started doing this fake 1rax gasless FE which is basically adding 2 extra rax before expanding without gas and going with my first 10 or so marines and 3/4 SCVs if the Protoss expands in reply to what he thinks I'm doing.

So it usually does damage and this time it got atleast 10 workers, 1 Zealot and 3 Stalkers.

So now I'm back at home macro'ing up, taking gas and going up to Medivacs,Combat Shield,Stim,Concussive, adding barracks. So basically the norm.

So he comes in with no AoE about 10mins later after I'd dropped a few times and he must've lost atleast 30workers through the whole game and he goes "Mules are too good GG"

LOL
 
Wow. Just read this over on team liquid from MKP's translated GSL interview:

Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ?
A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied a lot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet.
In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I
I've watched a lot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, a lot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose.
 
frankmcg said:
Wow. Just read this over on team liquid from MKP's translated GSL interview:

Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ?
A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied a lot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet.
In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I
I've watched a lot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, a lot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose.
Click to expand...

Same thing as DRG,MVP and Stephano have been saying.
 
Can we not start the pointless and silly Terran QQ here.

There's enough of that everywhere else already.

I could make a similar selectively chosen image showing Terran dominance for most of the history of the game, does it prove or achieve anything? No it doesn't.

I could also say that the win rate in GSL Code S this season is 60% for Terran over Zerg. Does this prove anything? No it doesn't, it's a small sample size.

The silly post on reddit about Terran being 23.8% of GM which is the lowest ever is yet another selective and silly statistic designed to encourage whining and panic. If you actually look at his source, all of the previous seasons and patches on record show Zerg is in the minority in the top recorded league. Did he mention that? No he didn't, why would he, he wants to promote his own personal opinion and add fuel to the fire of complaints.

If anyone really thinks the Queen change made all this difference alone they are pretty short sighted and don't understand how games like these evolve over time.

A lot of issues were fixed with those changes, now the issues that need resolving are the futures of the Raven, the Ghost, Reapers and Battlecruisers. These are what Terran has always needed looking at and now that the early game of TvZ has finally been stabilised there is room for such a thing to occur. It's a shame that most of the loudest Terran players are happy to knee jerk whine and protest in the hope that the change will be reverted and they can go back to their old advantageous early game rather than focus on making actual useful progress with the game.

You could change the Queen range back to 3 and Zerg would still be stronger right now. I expect if that happened the Terran complainers wouldn't just stop there, they'd want other changes made to put Terran back to the dominant win rate over Zerg that it has enjoyed for most of the history of the game.

The change coincided with a shift in the Zerg meta game and the way Zerg players approach games against Terran. Zerg players were already evolving a way to deal with the staple Terran opening. The Queen change just became the poster child for complaints.
 
Last edited:
"early game of TvZ has finally been stabilised"

couldn't agree less. What has happened is previously Z needed to play somewhat cautiously incase a 4+ helllion runby wiped out their drone line or proxy rax did massive damage. Now they can do whatever the hell they like (7RR, 2 base roach/bane/ling bust, 5-6 min 3rd) and T has no way of punishing. If I try to take a 3rd at the 6min mark I quite rightly expect to die to any sort of pressure from Z or P.

This threat was what stopped Z from spreading creep 1/2 way across the map and droning up to 80 before building any units. Now the threat is gone Z enters the mid game so far ahead that you need to be significantly better to win.

You can go on about shifting metagames, what high tech level buffs could be made etc etc all I know is that as it stands right now I can't beat more than about 1 Z in 5 any more when I used to be 50:50 at least and the games I win usually they messed up big time like flying mutas over my marines or walking infestors into a tank line. And at a higher level amongst people who can actually play the game they are having similar experiences.
 
avec said:
Can we not start the pointless and silly Terran QQ here.

There's enough of that everywhere else already.

I could make a similar selectively chosen image showing Terran dominance for most of the history of the game, does it prove or achieve anything? No it doesn't.

I could also say that the win rate in GSL Code S this season is 60% for Terran over Zerg. Does this prove anything? No it doesn't, it's a small sample size.

The silly post on reddit about Terran being 23.8% of GM which is the lowest ever is yet another selective and silly statistic designed to encourage whining and panic. If you actually look at his source, all of the previous seasons and patches on record show Zerg is in the minority in the top recorded league. Did he mention that? No he didn't, why would he, he wants to promote his own personal opinion and add fuel to the fire of complaints.

If anyone really thinks the Queen change made all this difference alone they are pretty short sighted and don't understand how games like these evolve over time.

A lot of issues were fixed with those changes, now the issues that need resolving are the futures of the Raven, the Ghost, Reapers and Battlecruisers. These are what Terran has always needed looking at and now that the early game of TvZ has finally been stabilised there is room for such a thing to occur. It's a shame that most of the loudest Terran players are happy to knee jerk whine and protest in the hope that the change will be reverted and they can go back to their old advantageous early game rather than focus on making actual useful progress with the game.

You could change the Queen range back to 3 and Zerg would still be stronger right now. I expect if that happened the Terran complainers wouldn't just stop there, they'd want other changes made to put Terran back to the dominant win rate over Zerg that it has enjoyed for most of the history of the game.

The change coincided with a shift in the Zerg meta game and the way Zerg players approach games against Terran. Zerg players were already evolving a way to deal with the staple Terran opening. The Queen change just became the poster child for complaints.
Click to expand...

I think it's you who doesn't understand.

The TvZ matchup was balanced for the most part before the patch and the only reason that the change in metagame as you put it came about was due to the buff because now out of position Queens aren't actually dead. There is in no way 4 or 6 queen openings would be used without the buff and that is EXACTLY why the Spanishiwa build fell out of popularity.

It wasn't even that long ago that they nerfed snipe cos of Lategame TvZ so it was exactly like TvP with Terran having to micro a hell of a lot more against a Zerg army to come out on top but that didn't even cause this much imbalance while people found a good solution. I find it funny that they nerfed snipe cos I assume they didn't want a single unit to be able to dominate the lategame and recently it's been popular to go mass-ghost in lategame TvP because it's so effective so I bet Ghosts have yet another nerf coming.

Here's an argument I heard which I think is quite good. Name me all the great Zergs that you can think of before the patch and then name me all the great Terrans. I bet you can come up with near enough double the amount of Terrans than you can Zergs.

Also Avec, if you understand the game so well then please explain to us how Zerg was at a disadvantage pre-patch.

frankmcg said:
"early game of TvZ has finally been stabilised"

couldn't agree less. What has happened is previously Z needed to play somewhat cautiously incase a 4+ helllion runby wiped out their drone line or proxy rax did massive damage. Now they can do whatever the hell they like (7RR, 2 base roach/bane/ling bust, 5-6 min 3rd) and T has no way of punishing. If I try to take a 3rd at the 6min mark I quite rightly expect to die to any sort of pressure from Z or P.

This threat was what stopped Z from spreading creep 1/2 way across the map and droning up to 80 before building any units. Now the threat is gone Z enters the mid game so far ahead that you need to be significantly better to win.

You can go on about shifting metagames, what high tech level buffs could be made etc etc all I know is that as it stands right now I can't beat more than about 1 Z in 5 any more when I used to be 50:50 at least and the games I win usually they messed up big time like flying mutas over my marines or walking infestors into a tank line. And at a higher level amongst people who can actually play the game they are having similar experiences.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't see how these Zerg players can look up to people like DRG and Stephano yet not listen to what these players have stated. They themselves, the best Korean and foreign Zergs said it was un-needed and it's so easy now.

I've recently won a few TvZs but it's only by using a single build I know that basically makes me play super turtle-style for at least 15minutes.
 
frankmcg said:
"early game of TvZ has finally been stabilised"

couldn't agree less. What has happened is previously Z needed to play somewhat cautiously incase a 4+ helllion runby wiped out their drone line or proxy rax did massive damage. Now they can do whatever the hell they like (7RR, 2 base roach/bane/ling bust, 5-6 min 3rd) and T has no way of punishing. If I try to take a 3rd at the 6min mark I quite rightly expect to die to any sort of pressure from Z or P.

This threat was what stopped Z from spreading creep 1/2 way across the map and droning up to 80 before building any units. Now the threat is gone Z enters the mid game so far ahead that you need to be significantly better to win.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the queen changes? Proxy rax will hit before 2 queens are out.

Why not do fast 3rd CC in your main and float it over when you can? If the zerg makes 4 queens he will delay his gas so any ling/bling pressure will be delayed too.
 
JIM_BOB7813 said:
Are you talking about the queen changes? Proxy rax will hit before 2 queens are out.

Why not do fast 3rd CC in your main and float it over when you can? If the zerg makes 4 queens he will delay his gas so any ling/bling pressure will be delayed too.
Click to expand...

I assume you don't play Zerg or Terran cos 4/6queen openers almost are always accompanied by an early Baneling attack with Roaches or Lings which can do anything from slight damage where he trades inefficiently but kills off the majority of your army to ending the game which doesn't put the Zerg behind cos he just makes 15 drones during.

I assume your referring to the 11/11 variation of the proxy rax which is all-in and you shouldn't expect it to work every game and therefore isn't a viable suggestion. If you go 12/14 rax then the Zerg is free to drone scout it even though it may not be all-in.

A 3CC build has somewhat become popular as some people think this is a good strat atm but it's incredibly greedy and is easily punished if scouted. Not to mention the Zerg will usually get a third at 5mins at the earliest and you won't be safe enough to protect a third till atleast 10mins+
 
HankScorpio said:
nope they're non ranked, practice matches. you can lose all 50, they're designed to get you used to it before going into ranked matches.
Click to expand...

Awesome, i think the dialogue that comes up says once you 'give up' the practice league you cant go back..., i think i'll play a few more and get into some ranked matches.

Longest game took 40seconds to connect to, seems the community is still alive, also asked the players and they said they thought it was fine.

Thats my night and weekends over, i remember back few years ago when i played through the campaign only and i was playing any chance i got and it was on my mind while at work, haha.
 
Kamwah said:
I assume you don't play Zerg or Terran cos 4/6queen openers almost are always accompanied by an early Baneling attack with Roaches or Lings which can do anything from slight damage where he trades inefficiently but kills off the majority of your army to ending the game which doesn't put the Zerg behind cos he just makes 15 drones during.
Click to expand...

Ermm no? If you go 4queen you delay gases till about 36-40 supply and if you got 6queen you delay till about 50supply. Sure you might get a early bane attack if they are not playing economic but same can be said for 15hatch that you can do a early bane attack or roach attack if you don't want to take a third. Generally a early roach attack will do more bad than good, unless the terran is a retard you should be able to damage.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom