**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Gzero said:
Come play with me. o/ :D
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:)

I've officially ragequit.

That's it. I'm done until HotS most likely.

Today was literally the most soul crushing ladder session I've ever done. Played about 15 games, ~12 of which were TvP. Lost all but 2 of the TvPs. Was playing beyond terrible. The only game I'm actually pleased with my performance in was a TvP which I somehow won (late game), because my opponent was an idiot and let me EMP all his HT.

Also ran into what appears to be the worst, most dickish cross section of the SC2 community I've ever come across. 2 guys which beat me proceeded to BM and tell me how bad I am, how they're so much better than me, and that I should go kill myself etc etc.

Being prideful I challenged one of them to a rematch. He was Zerg. He crushed my first small push of marines easily. My second push once Stim, combat shields and 1/1 finished killed him off.

This was when the excuses started. Apparently after he beat my first push he "knew the game was over" and so he wasn't playing seriously anymore. I should count it as a loss because he'd obviously won already. He hadn't played for months and this was his first session since. Etc etc.

Well I tried to explain to him that him crushing my first push didn't matter at all. I only sent half my army, for the purpose of forcing larvae on lings not drones. Worked perfectly, taking mules into account I was significantly ahead on Eco the whole game. He was still adamant that I don't have a clue, don't understand how Z works, and I'm clearly an inferior player.

Don't know why I bother playing this game when it's so full of *********, trolls, cheesers and imbalanced BS.

I'll see you guys in HotS.
 
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pfft only accept out of game messages from friends and F11 those trolls. Theres no need to quit Sheep, I know terran are **** but concentrate on your game, or come join me and play zerg. It's not quite as easy as you might think!
 
Naff8000 said:
pfft only accept out of game messages from friends and F11 those trolls. Theres no need to quit Sheep, I know terran are **** but concentrate on your game, or come join me and play zerg. It's not quite as easy as you might think!
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Yeah. Just need to learn to ignore it. I've calmed down a bit now. No SC2 for me until mid august after my exams anyway. Might come back then, maybe just for team games or something.

...I may be back sooner if like usual, I forget how much rage this game instills in me and return until I can't take it anymore, then quit again :(

I can beat Z and P fine sometimes. It's specific strategies which I just can't deal with. I'm sure most of them I can't beat just due to me not responding or scouting correctly. But there are a few things which I think are just plain imba. Nothing against Z players, I just hate blizzard for ruining my favourite matchup (both to play and spectate) by overnerfing the ghost and then, even worse, senselessly buffing the queen when no one (not even zerg players) was complaining.

I look back to all the awesome strategies that used to be possible. Ghost rush in TvT, sniping banelings in TvZ etc. I understand it was too strong against Z T3 but come on.... they literally ruined half the variety of the game. All that's left is boring MMM every matchup. See collossi? WOAH build a few vikings. That's the extent of variety.

SC2 is still amazing, but it's infuriating to play when I know that it could be SO much better, more varied, more fun, more balanced, and more interesting. All it would take is for someone nonretarded to replace dustin browder and david kim.
 
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yep I don't blame you. I never found P interesting to play but I liked to dabble on T to try out some crazy builds. It is very linear for T but I find mech is strong against zerg, might be because I suck against it. I think the queen upgrade was necessary because frankly I used to be pretty scared of zvt due to the power and unpredictability of early T pushes. Now that's sorted, what is really needed is some terran power for the mid/late game, and quickly.
 
Only bad Zergs needed the Queen upgrade.

You never see Stephano,Nerchio,DRG fail to that kind of stuff. It's just the general mindset of the Zerg metagame that makes them so greedy. It was always simple to hold off all-ins as long as you wasn't greedy.

I don't think Terran need a lategame buff. The only problems I have with Zerg are the stupid all-ins with Banelings in the earlygame(which are just so stupid because they have such damage potential for cheap) and lategame when they just remax on Lings and your hellions are the tanks so they die during the main engagement.
 
It wasn't simple to hold it off since you often had no idea what he was doing. I haven't seen drg fail to much but I've seen stephano fail many times to terran early game.
 
Naff8000 said:
yep I don't blame you. I never found P interesting to play but I liked to dabble on T to try out some crazy builds. It is very linear for T but I find mech is strong against zerg, might be because I suck against it. I think the queen upgrade was necessary because frankly I used to be pretty scared of zvt due to the power and unpredictability of early T pushes. Now that's sorted, what is really needed is some terran power for the mid/late game, and quickly.
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Naff8000 said:
It wasn't simple to hold it off since you often had no idea what he was doing. I haven't seen drg fail to much but I've seen stephano fail many times to terran early game.
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The thing is, like idra once said, zerg needed either a safe build which will be ok vs everything a T can do, OR a way to scout early on what they are doing and respond accordingly.

Now the overlord buff gave them the latter, and the queen buff the former, so now they have both. This is why it's imba. There is NOTHING terran can do to stop the OL scouting their base early on (unless Z gets unlucky on a 4 player map i guess but we obviously cant rely on that).

The reason zerg sometimes had difficulty holding off terran pressure is because they build NO units. Clearly if T has an army and Z doesn't then T deserves to come out on top, otherwise something is seriously imbalanced. If Z just built units they were fine. This is why high level pro zergs didn't have much of a problem. They had the map awareness and game sense that they were prepared in advance.

What happens now is that Z always knows if the Terran is doing an all in, and therefore if they arent then Z can be even more greedy than before. They can hold off pretty much ANYTHING except an all in just with queens.

If the OL hadn't been buffed, then they wouldnt know so easily whether an all in was coming so they would at least have to buy a spine or two.

If the queen hadn't been buffed then they would have to buy some units to defend.

As you can see, problems arise when both buffs happen at the same time as it makes Zerg waaaaay too safe.

Before the patch, 95% of terrans opened reactor hellion. Now, some bad zergs died to this outright, but this was not due to imbalance, but just poor play. If the Z placed their evos and queens, and a spine, correctly then there was absolutely no way that hellions could get in. All they could do was deny creep spread and a fast 3rd until the zerg got a few roaches. For the amount of money the hellions cost, and considering how easy it was for the zerg to get rid of them just with a couple of roaches, this was a completely acceptable balanced metagame.

Nowadays, there is jack**** that terrran can do except pray the zerg makes a huge mistake or is terrible at handling drops. Literally the way to win as zerg is:

- drones and queens until 80 supply (unless you see a push coming with your maphax highground OLs).
- good injects
- defend drops well

those are the 3 cornerstones of succeeding in TvZ and they are way too easy to achieve.

I can't advance above my current high diamond level, because in masters zerg players actually place the OLs well in drop routes, and intercept with a few mutas, or have a spore and 2 spines at each base rendering drops pretty innefectual. And drops are currently the only way I can keep up in the mid and late game.
 
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Overlord Speed fixed that. Queen Range stopped it completely. lol.

Sheep is ignoring me but he needs to Mech them Zerg cry. XD


I'd wrather have a fix for TvP than TvZ. It's just stupid, if I come across a Toss on ladder I know I'm going to lose because they're just so imbalanced.
 
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SheepBeast said:
:)

I've officially ragequit.

That's it. I'm done until HotS most likely.

Today was literally the most soul crushing ladder session I've ever done. Played about 15 games, ~12 of which were TvP. Lost all but 2 of the TvPs. Was playing beyond terrible. The only game I'm actually pleased with my performance in was a TvP which I somehow won (late game), because my opponent was an idiot and let me EMP all his HT.

Also ran into what appears to be the worst, most dickish cross section of the SC2 community I've ever come across. 2 guys which beat me proceeded to BM and tell me how bad I am, how they're so much better than me, and that I should go kill myself etc etc.

Being prideful I challenged one of them to a rematch. He was Zerg. He crushed my first small push of marines easily. My second push once Stim, combat shields and 1/1 finished killed him off.

This was when the excuses started. Apparently after he beat my first push he "knew the game was over" and so he wasn't playing seriously anymore. I should count it as a loss because he'd obviously won already. He hadn't played for months and this was his first session since. Etc etc.

Well I tried to explain to him that him crushing my first push didn't matter at all. I only sent half my army, for the purpose of forcing larvae on lings not drones. Worked perfectly, taking mules into account I was significantly ahead on Eco the whole game. He was still adamant that I don't have a clue, don't understand how Z works, and I'm clearly an inferior player.

Don't know why I bother playing this game when it's so full of *********, trolls, cheesers and imbalanced BS.

I'll see you guys in HotS.
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Sounds like he was a sensitive soul - good opportunity for a wind-up imo!

Thats great you werent trying, but can you just remind me who won? Ive forgotten! :p

Seriously though, this is why I dont talk to randoms online. Ignore ftw.

As an aside, it amazes me he would make such excuses over something so trivial as a computer game, take it on the chin and move on.
 
Sheepie, come play zerg with me, and I'll show you why zerg needed a queen buff.

Also I'll put it into words, early on in the game, any offensive units built by zerg hurt zerg's economy twice the amount of any other race, so the solution was to build loads of bases but often that leaves zerg spread too thinly and easy for any early marine push to mop up.

Watch that match:
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/199021/

And then tell me that zerg are op?

Come play fun games with me Sheep :D
 
Gzero said:
Sheepie, come play zerg with me, and I'll show you why zerg needed a queen buff.

Also I'll put it into words, early on in the game, any offensive units built by zerg hurt zerg's economy twice the amount of any other race, so the solution was to build loads of bases but often that leaves zerg spread too thinly and easy for any early marine push to mop up.

Watch that match:
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/199021/

And then tell me that zerg are op?

Come play fun games with me Sheep :D
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Yeah it hurt Zerg twice as much.... but what happens if Zerg DON'T build any units? Their economy goes completely out of control and they get 80 drones before terran even has 50, at which point the game is pretty much already over.

That's how the matchup was balanced. T could force Z to build just enough units to hold their economy back enough so that the match was even. If we just leave Z alone then it's auto-lose. But now even when we pressure it's essentially the same as leaving Z alone because they can hold everything with the queens they build anyway, which don't cost larvae.

Look at it this way: what happens if Z is left alone until 10 min mark to just build drones? They then just start teching, and build up a huge bank of larvae and money which they can use to instantly build an entire army if they see a push coming.

What happens if T is left alone and only builds SCVs until 10 minute mark? We could probably be even on economy, maybe with 4 or 5 orbitals, but we would have no army. And it takes us 10x as long to produce an army at this stage of thegame than it does for zerg.

Result: Z player sacs ovie, sees no T army. Builds 60lings at once, morphs a few banelings and kills him with absolute ease.

This is why Terran MUST build units, in order to pressure. When that pressure becomes ineffectual, the matchup is imbalanced, because we are behind on economy and there's nothing at all that we can do about it.

Can't play SC2 now for the next couple weeks... back home at my parents house and the comp here cant handle gaming. Probably for the best as I need to study anyway.
 
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Kamwah said:
Overlord Speed fixed that. Queen Range stopped it completely. lol.

Sheep is ignoring me but he needs to Mech them Zerg cry. XD
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I've never liked mech in TvZ tbh. I find you're inceredibly weak for most of the game until you reach max, and it only works on a few maps like antiga where you can lock down the centre, otherwise Z can abuse your immobility really easily. Also the infrastructure of building so many factories costs SOOO much it's ridiculous. I'll probaly experiment with it in HotS with the new widow mine added (guess that's why they added it, to stop mech immobility being abused so easily), but not in WoL. I like my bio micro too much :)

I'd wrather have a fix for TvP than TvZ. It's just stupid, if I come across a Toss on ladder I know I'm going to lose because they're just so imbalanced.
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Same tbh. Both are imbalanced, however in TvZ I can at least make one or two cheeses work. Not so in TvP. I can deal with High Templar reasonably well now actually, the problem arises when there is the typical deathball where collossi are included as well.

It doesn't matter how many vikings I buy, by the time they've killed the collossi my MM force is already dead or massacred enough that the warp in of zealots will finish it off. I can only win in these situations if the P engages in a TERRIBLE position and lets me snipe a few free collossi. But it's not balanced to have to rely on that.

TvT is the only matchup I consistantly enjoy playing (out of all 9). ZvZ is fun but only early game.
 
I love that all of the whining from Sheep and Kamwah has driven off most of the casual chat in this thread. I am still an active player of SC2 in the lower leagues (and have been since release day) and most of these buffs / nerfs have had very little impact on the structure of the game in the lower levels.
 
ci_newman said:
I love that all of the whining from Sheep and Kamwah has driven off most of the casual chat in this thread. I am still an active player of SC2 in the lower leagues (and have been since release day) and most of these buffs / nerfs have had very little impact on the structure of the game in the lower levels.
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I don't see why anyone would be driven off. Whenever anyone posts anything Kamwah and I are happy to respond with answers/help/discussion/whatever. It'd be great if more people contributed but hardly anyone does, you can't blame that on us. I'd like to see more discussion of ongoing tournaments etc but I don't think many people here watch them.

Agreed, if the lower levels are bronze-gold. But I'd say platinum upwards has been affected. In fact plat and diamond are the worst leagues for TvP because we can't micro well enough. Higher leagues it evens out because people have enough spare APM.

Even in gold and silver, there is still some semblance of a metagame which is still influenced by buffs. In these leagues, the execution may be bad, but people tend to know roughly what they're trying to achieve. They copy masters/pro players. eg they build lots of queens. So the game is still affected.

I'm happy to have a rough rule that people shouldn't keep balance whining, but I'm pretty sure this thread would just die.
 
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SheepBeast said:
I don't see why anyone would be driven off. Whenever anyone posts anything Kamwah and I are happy to respond with answers/help/discussion/whatever. It'd be great if more people contributed but hardly anyone does, you can't blame that on us. I'd like to see more discussion of ongoing tournaments etc but I don't think many people here watch them.

Agreed, if the lower levels are bronze-gold. But I'd say platinum upwards has been affected. In fact plat and diamond are the worst leagues for TvP because we can't micro well enough. Higher leagues it evens out because people have enough spare APM.

Even in gold and silver, there is still some semblance of a metagame which is still influenced by buffs. In these leagues, the execution may be bad, but people tend to know roughly what they're trying to achieve. They copy masters/pro players. eg they build lots of queens. So the game is still affected.

I'm happy to have a rough rule that people shouldn't keep balance whining, but I'm pretty sure this thread would just die.
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Well, balance whining has been going on since the game was released - it is part of the fun. However *all* of the posts these days seem to be about balance issues rather than discussing HotS, custom games (some right gems have popped up recently) or even casual 3v3, 4v4 etc.

There is far more to the World of Starcraft then 1v1s :)
 
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