**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Just played a (silver league) game. Protoss vs Terran.

I went pretty standard, build the standard army and was way ahead of him in supply.

I reached a reasonable amount of supply, saw how ahead I was and went for the win. Went for my opponents third.

So he stimmed his marines across the map, ran into my base, killed all my tech and then died when my army had eventually lumbered its way back across the map.

With me behind in tech and unable to build units, he quickly built up a large army off of his one mining base and a moved and won.

How am I supposed to react to that kind of thing? So this Terran can just win solely because his marines moved quickly enough to do that? I really don't know when I should be attacking with Protoss because my army is just so slow and easy to outmaneuver.

This game makes me rage so much.
 
Just played a (silver league) game. Protoss vs Terran.

I went pretty standard, build the standard army and was way ahead of him in supply.

I reached a reasonable amount of supply, saw how ahead I was and went for the win. Went for my opponents third.

So he stimmed his marines across the map, ran into my base, killed all my tech and then died when my army had eventually lumbered its way back across the map.

With me behind in tech and unable to build units, he quickly built up a large army off of his one mining base and a moved and won.

How am I supposed to react to that kind of thing? So this Terran can just win solely because his marines moved quickly enough to do that? I really don't know when I should be attacking with Protoss because my army is just so slow and easy to outmaneuver.

This game makes me rage so much.

Surely if you'd killed all his army at your base you could then just go straight to his base and kill him?

Anyway IMO in that kind of situation you shouldn't have pulled back - you're best just going for a base trade. Just set your army killing off his base, and use your attention on saving as many probes as possible. Just bring them to your army and build a pylon or two.

After you've killed off his base, throw down a nexus in his old main and just macro up. Once you're confident you can split your army in 2 (and that each half could by itself beat the enemy army) then just send one group out onto the map to finish off his remaining troops/random depots he's constructed.

As protoss you should move out when:
1) you reach max
2) timing attack with some kind of upgrade ie: fast blink/charge, fast 1/1 etc if you're doing gateway all-ins

Basically if you're going for a macro game (which is recommended in PvT from the protoss perspective) then just focus on defending, chronoing probes and upgrades and macroing up a deathball with storm and collossi, then move out once maxed.

Blink is also great in the kindof situation you outlined in your post. Just leave your zealots tearing up his base and blink all your stalkers repeatedly across the map to defend. Combined with a warp in at your base, you should be able to kill the marines or at least keep them occupied until your collossi arrive (which you also pulled back)
 
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I've never liked mech in TvZ tbh. I find you're inceredibly weak for most of the game until you reach max, and it only works on a few maps like antiga where you can lock down the centre, otherwise Z can abuse your immobility really easily. Also the infrastructure of building so many factories costs SOOO much it's ridiculous. I'll probaly experiment with it in HotS with the new widow mine added (guess that's why they added it, to stop mech immobility being abused so easily), but not in WoL. I like my bio micro too much :)

I never used to do mech but since the buff I've spent so much of my time playing TvZ and finding builds that work I've mech'd all my games because a lot of Zergs aren't smart enough to respond properly.
While you're immobile constant Hellion runbys do wonders, I've had games where at the end I've killed near 100 workers and a few hundred lings XD
2 base can support 1Reactor and 3TL'd Factories, you don't need many Thors apart from 2-3 around 10-12mins because of the potential for Mutas to just suddenly appear.
Also done a few games where I change my mineral sink to Marines instead of Hellions because Hellions die way too easy to banelings because it's really just a big Protoss-like deathball.


Same tbh. Both are imbalanced, however in TvZ I can at least make one or two cheeses work. Not so in TvP. I can deal with High Templar reasonably well now actually, the problem arises when there is the typical deathball where collossi are included as well.

It doesn't matter how many vikings I buy, by the time they've killed the collossi my MM force is already dead or massacred enough that the warp in of zealots will finish it off. I can only win in these situations if the P engages in a TERRIBLE position and lets me snipe a few free collossi. But it's not balanced to have to rely on that.

TvT is the only matchup I consistantly enjoy playing (out of all 9). ZvZ is fun but only early game.

Well TvP i just cheese because it's just stupid. I 1/1/1, 12,14,18rax or 11/11rax. They need to nerf Zealots cos they're so tanky and do really good damage to other tier 1 units. People always talk about how Marines do good DPS for the cost but Zealots are the single reason why the Protoss deathballs work so well.

TvZ is actually my favourite matchup as long as they don't do that stupid imba 60supply baneling bust or something stupid happens like when they instantly remax on Lings or Roaches through the stupid production they have OR they do the drone trick to get an extra 20-30 supply.

My TvT is horrid, I hardly get to practice it so I've been playing with a Terran friend to get into the groove again as I used to enjoy TvT a lot but these days it seems to be so wildly varied that I can't tell what he's doing by his buildings. Lots of stupid hellion/marine all-ins T_T


@Gzero - Stephano has won against some of the best players in the world. He deals with Reactor Hellion easily, he builds a few roaches and makes sure he knows when they're coming.
The only other reason I can think of is for all-ins but Zerg has plenty of all-ins that work that can't be scouted till you see the banelings coming up your ramp because Zergs always take map control after the hellions die.

@ci_newman - When I started posting in this thread I wasn't playing much but I still visited this thread as much as I do now. I don't remember much casual talk and most of the people are still here or have stopped playing which most people do. I also help others whenever someone asks for it.


@Daichin - Mass Marine? If there were no medivacs then get Sentrys to FF your ramp. If there's medivacs then still get Sentrys but have some Stalkers inbase to deal with drops.
 
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I never used to do mech but since the buff I've spent so much of my time playing TvZ and finding builds that work I've mech'd all my games because a lot of Zergs aren't smart enough to respond properly.
While you're immobile constant Hellion runbys do wonders, I've had games where at the end I've killed near 100 workers and a few hundred lings XD
2 base can support 1Reactor and 3TL'd Factories, you don't need many Thors apart from 2-3 around 10-12mins because of the potential for Mutas to just suddenly appear.

So I assume by "mech", your style is effectively mass tanks, with hellions as a minerals sink, and a handful of thors mixed in? (enough to stop mutas)

Sounds pretty cool. I assume you have to be very aware of greater spire timing and make sure you build two or 3 starports in plenty of time for the transition? Also that you have to plaster your flanks and mineral lines with turrets :)

What opener do you usually do to transition into this style? And what kind of things can Z do which do well against this?

Sorry for interrogation :D.

@Daichin - Mass Marine? If there were no medivacs then get Sentrys to FF your ramp. If there's medivacs then still get Sentrys but have some Stalkers inbase to deal with drops.

Dunno why I didn't think of that lol. Guess I don't play protoss enough. They make me feel dirty.
 
I don't blame you Sheep. It's a dirty A-move race. XD
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Yes, it's effectively that which can be an annoyance at times because your third can come late on some maps unless you have map control.

It really is mass tank, there's usually more than 10 hellions because Ling remaxes are common. You get more than a handful of Thors but you aim for mass tank midgame because it allows you to secure expansions in key positions. If you scout Lair coming you need to make sure you see what tech he's going because I've only had a few times where Mutas caught me off guard and I survived through it XD

When Hive starts you throw in a few extra Thors and 2/3 Starports which depending on the it's progression you can reactor or just quickly get out vikings. I don't bother building Turrets all over the map, half the time there's too much creep and it never dissipates even with a raven in your army and stutter stepping to kill it all as you move in to deny 3rd/4ths.

I've got two openers...

Blue Flame Opener.
-Gas First.
-Fact immediately after Rax.
- Scout at some point and aim to leave your scouting worker at the most probable third (If it doesn't go down by 6mins then expect aggression with/without Banelings or 2base Muta rarely)
-Swap when ready.
-Constant worker production.
Hellion production with blue-flame upgrade. (Do not get supply blocked, you should need 2 additional depots at some point before you have 4 hellions and rally them to the back of your base so they don't get scouted as it may be mistaken for fast siege which'll also deter baneling busts.)
-Marine production till 4. (spread them out to deny OL scouting)
-At some point you will have enough for a highground CC before you move out.
-When Blue flame is done start siege mode straight away and start your 2nd gas. Place down a second factory when you have the available resources.
-Move out with 4 Hellions and aim to get them into the main. (If a queen block is on the ramp due to them having active scouting then kill the workers on the natural, if they mineral walk to behind the queens then get them while they're congo'd and don't forget the larva coz hellions rape larva)
- Once your push is over depending on your macro you may have money floating due to not a lot of production. Move your CC out to the lowerground and go OC.
- Maynard Workers
- Bunker near the ramp but give it enough room so that the barracks can go infront of it (to soak baneling damage if it comes)
-Your aim from here is to grab your third gas, start siege tank production and put a reactor on the earlier 2nd factory. Moving on from there you should get (In any order depending on how the game goes) a quick inbase third(Don't move out till you have a sufficient tank count), double armory and two extra factories.
- If he goes Roach don't rule out Mutas coming a bit later to throw you off, just keep an eye on him and try to keep active with teams of 4/5 hellions harassing.
-If he goes Muta you may not have enough Thors so pull the line he's attacking and mass repair.
- On a lot of maps I will eBay block runby paths in the lategame like on Daybreak I block the ramp down to the third and take my third in the middle. Don't forget a few Turrets to stop Burrowed Roaches getting under your army or Infestors)

This one isn't very standard and I designed the build myself. There is a different way to do it which goes from a 1rax FE but it hardly ever does any ecodamage but it does allow you to get enough Hellions to stop any roach baneling bust.

Hellion/Banshee opener
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330490

It's a variant of that build.

I basically just 1rax FE, get my double gas on 17 after the 2nd depot. Factory at 100, Reactor on Rax, Bunker near lowground expo. As soon as the barracks is done making a reactor I put it somewhere else and make TL which is for the starport which is made directly after the Factory. Move out when you have 2 Banshees and I think 8 Hellions (just constantly produce them). The transition is the exact same as above, Quick third, quick double armory and 1-1 and 3 extra factories.
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There's multiple things that mech can fail to. Maxing on Roaches like they're playing against Protoss can work if you're not placing your tanks in a good place. Ling/Roach drops are probably the only thing that is a definite win due to no or not enough anti-air.

Also instant remaxing on Lings or Roaches can prove to be an annoyance if the engagement happens in the middle of the map away from your production because reinforcement rate can be low.


Some of this may not make sense as I just woke up to get something to eat ¬.¬ So just ask if somethings not clear. MECH THEM ZERG CRY!

Just to add, I tried a MKP Mech TvP build earlier. Vikings,Tanks and Hellions. #WINNING
 
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Omg... I just raped a Protoss so hard.

Marine drop in the main, 4 hellions in the nat off of a 1/1/1 with an expansion coming up. All his workers died.
 
long guide

Awesome, cheers :). Will experiment with that once my exams are done. I used to do a build i made up which was basically go straight to siege tanks off 1 gas, spending surplus minerals on a few marines and a CC. It works against bad zergs but as i moved up the ladder it stopped working because i didn't have any pressure early game (i went straight to tanks, skipping hellions). It was great against busts but sucked as a setup for the midgame. Your builds look a lot more useful.

Omg... I just raped a Protoss so hard.

Marine drop in the main, 4 hellions in the nat off of a 1/1/1 with an expansion coming up. All his workers died.

As in... you did the drop first so he pulled his army? Then ran hellions in the front? :D I used to do that sometimes before the blue flame nerf. I'd get BF really fast. Got so much rage for that.
 
Yea the marines got the army to go into the main and then he pulled his mains workers to his natural. The hellions all came in and killed everything XD 40 workers dead.

I don't do Blue-flame as it delays it somewhat. My 111 has no addons and 1 gas.
 
I guess it didn't happen then =P

No replay for you!

Just saw DRG get crushed by Leenock. Wow, he's just failed so badly today/yesterday T_T
 
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Thanks, that was what I thought after that game, that a base trade would be the best option.

After I actually engaged his army I had lost a lot of units and wasn't able to counter attack, and that was just a case of him having siege tanks up his ramp. If I had attacked whilst he was killing my tech I might have managed to make a comeback.

It wasn't a drop as such, it was his whole army. I think I'll make an effort to keep sentries at the base in the future. If I'd spotted it coming and used forcefields on the ramp that game would have turned out so very differently. I'd have been able to corner his army and then rebuild and then attack up his ramp.
 
Thanks, that was what I thought after that game, that a base trade would be the best option.

After I actually engaged his army I had lost a lot of units and wasn't able to counter attack, and that was just a case of him having siege tanks up his ramp. If I had attacked whilst he was killing my tech I might have managed to make a comeback.

It wasn't a drop as such, it was his whole army. I think I'll make an effort to keep sentries at the base in the future. If I'd spotted it coming and used forcefields on the ramp that game would have turned out so very differently. I'd have been able to corner his army and then rebuild and then attack up his ramp.

Yeah. Against terran keep a pylon (or observer) underneath each drop path. Even if he drops on it and kills it you'll at least know he's coming, and if he just turns round and goes back to base then you've still denied the drop.

If you see a drop coming then 2 stalkers per medivac (with blink) will stop it dead. The rest of your army can be free to go attack his base.
 
Anyone watching MLG? http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live

Pretty good so far. Stephano playing godlike. Puma took out sase quite confidently.

Yea im watching it atm, it's all been great so far. Shame we can no longer buy a gold membership online, can only buy cards from Toys r Us or Gamestop in USA. :(
Mine is about to run out and it'll cost loads more to watch these events.

Not played SC2 for best part of a year, but i love watching people play it, such a great spectator game imo.
 
Yea im watching it atm, it's all been great so far. Shame we can no longer buy a gold membership online, can only buy cards from Toys r Us or Gamestop in USA. :(
Mine is about to run out and it'll cost loads more to watch these events.

Not played SC2 for best part of a year, but i love watching people play it, such a great spectator game imo.

What.... that's BS :mad: I'm a cheapo and just watch the free low-res stream but I can see that'd be annoying if I was used to gold membership. I don't see why they would stop selling it online? Surely it's just limiting their market :confused:

Agreed. I get a similar thrill from watching (good) games as I do playing, but without the rage and frustration :). Still like to play though, I'm taking a break atm.

Absolutely phenomonal play from Oz
 
Anyone watching MLG? http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live

Pretty good so far. Stephano playing godlike. Puma took out sase quite confidently.

Not watching it for once. The player pool this arena isn't very interesting and it's obvious whose going to make it far which makes it into a snooze fest. Especially seeing as ZvP is the worst matchup to watch IMO from a spectators viewpoint.

Alicia, Taeja, Violet or Stephano will win.
 
What.... that's BS :mad: I'm a cheapo and just watch the free low-res stream but I can see that'd be annoying if I was used to gold membership. I don't see why they would stop selling it online? Surely it's just limiting their market :confused:

Agreed. I get a similar thrill from watching (good) games as I do playing, but without the rage and frustration :). Still like to play though, I'm taking a break atm.

Absolutely phenomonal play from Oz

Well i can see why they did remove gold membership online.

I paid $29.99 for the year, that gave me the main events in HD, the arenas you have to pay for HD but with a discount.
Now if i want to watch HD event on August 24-26 it will cost me $29.99, just for one event. MLG are basically forcing anyone not American to pay per event and it will cost hell of a lot more.

It's a shame there's hardly ever any events in the UK.
 
I wouldn't say it's that obvious Kamwah. Oz pwned stephano in their bo3.

Yeah Flickeh. I'd love to go watch stuff in person. Probably go to dreamhack sometime when I get a chance/spare money and gather some people to go with :)
 
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