Overwatch

[Worthy]

She's a cruel mistress isn't she!?

 

[uncle_rufus]

I had a great night tonight! All the way from 2719 to 2600... every single game a loss and featuring:

2 games with leavers...

A duo who insisted "I am a smurf, give me genji or I throw" and then when they didn't get him picked torb and bastion and walked in to get killed without shooting the whole game...

2 games with players on the other team openly smurfing and bragging about it all game in chat...

and a standard completely one-sided un-fun terrible match that we had zero chance of winning at any point...

I know I know I obviously just need to "git gud", group up and communicate - if only I'd done that all those games would have turned out so differently... This is all after a solid week last week of painfully clawing my way up that 120SR across probably about 20 games, with the majority of wins there also being un-fun stompfests where my team could have done literally anything and won...

I'm increasingly just despairing at this game and pitying anybody who actually enjoys it from a competitive angle and is deluded enough to think they are skilled at it... 99% of games are just picked by the matchmaker to force a specific team to win no matter what, they aren't close, no amount of skill on any players part makes any difference at all... and yet most of the time the players on the winning team's attitude is "we're just better" "mad cuz bad"... completely oblivious to the fact that in gold/plat we're all absolute trash-tier players who are awful at the game but are simply going through the motions of whatever the matchmaker has decided is going to happen...

Have I just been playing the game for too long now that I can't get excited when I get a team wiping ult against players who feel like they can barely operate the mouse and keyboard compared to me? Am I expecting too much for player skill to actually make a difference in a supposedly competitive game?

 

[booyaka]

Am I expecting too much for player skill to actually make a difference in a supposedly competitive game?

that's kind of where I'm at - I ain't the greatest but I aint a 1900 skill player either. I almost always carry teams with healing 15-20k a game, or elims/damage with junk etc but no matter how "good" I play a round - If the team comp sucks and clearly bad against the opponents, no matter what you do personally - you loose no matter what.

 

[AndyCr15]

I'm increasingly just despairing at this game and pitying anybody who actually enjoys it from a competitive angle and is deluded enough to think they are skilled at it... 99% of games are just picked by the matchmaker to force a specific team to win no matter what, they aren't close, no amount of skill on any players part makes any difference at all... and yet most of the time the players on the winning team's attitude is "we're just better" "mad cuz bad"... completely oblivious to the fact that in gold/plat we're all absolute trash-tier players who are awful at the game but are simply going through the motions of whatever the matchmaker has decided is going to happen...

I don't really get this. Skill plays no part? But you got beat by a team with smurfs... who... had more skill perhaps?

I've been taking a beating again recently, dropped back down to 1950 but I can see I have a bad team in most of my losses. Then me and HatHanzo got a few good teams, you can see they work together, Dva guards me as a healer, Lucio waits and speed boosts people with him from spawn etc.

If you're arguing your own skill makes no difference, yes, quite often, if you're team is that bad or that good. But at the same time, surely we've all been in those games were you play a blinder and you know you made the difference in capping a point, or holding a point? Surely that's how most team games are?

Mind you, I play more Mystery Heroes than Comp these days. (I still don't quite get why you would pity someone that enjoys comp? I've had some very good games recently) Had a fun Mystery Heroes game last night that I believe we won as I got a teleporter down behind the second cap point on attack. It's funny, if I picked Sym in that situation in a comp game I would probably be reported, but I'm sure it played a big part in winning the game.

 

[uncle_rufus]

I don't really get this. Skill plays no part? But you got beat by a team with smurfs... who... had more skill perhaps?

Well, yes of course... in a technical sense they won because of a huge skill imbalance, but that's not really winning with skill at your rank is it? The idea of a fair/balanced game should be that players of equal rank play each other and the winning team ends up being the one who played better on the day or used better strategies etc... not just which team happened to queue into having a smurf (or the matchmaker putting the smurf in the game to force a certain outcome)

If you're arguing your own skill makes no difference, yes, quite often, if you're team is that bad or that good. But at the same time, surely we've all been in those games were you play a blinder and you know you made the difference in capping a point, or holding a point? Surely that's how most team games are?

My argument is that in those games you mention - where you feel like you played amazing and made a huge difference; you actually didn't 99% of the time, you're just playing in a game which unless you go out of your way to throw you will win no matter what, and playing even half-decently will have you wiping teams and feeling like an absolute god at the game... exactly like the other half of the games the matchmaker serves up where even your entire team playing perfectly with full comms and amazing strategy will still lose horribly, because the matchmaker in that game has decided that it's the other team's turn to get an easy win and feel like they're amazing players... Rinse, repeat...

Every now and then, perhaps 1 game in 100 if I had to try and put a number on it... the matchmaker conjures up a perfect storm where it comes up with 2 groups of 6 players that it doesn't have an overwhelming urge to either ego-pump or completely humiliate, and you get a brilliant game that goes to 6 rounds on 2CP or 3 rounds of 99-99 on KOTH, with it feeling like every team fight and play is hugely significant and could go either way right down to the end of the match... and the game really shines in those matches, win or lose, you feel like you were actually playing a game of skill against your opponents...

(I still don't quite get why you would pity someone that enjoys comp? I've had some very good games recently)

I was freshly salted out of a horrible run of games so perhaps saying I pity people was a bit over-dramatic! but I guess I just mean I really don't understand how so many people are accepting of the way the game works... Judging by the majority of the player sentiment I should just pick some poor schmuck on my team to verbally abuse and blame for everything that goes wrong in those unwinnable games and feel like a smug **** who thinks they're the most pro player ever in the games that are handed to me to win without even trying... I don't want that... in a weird way it reminds me of the way I feel about people hacking in competitive games - sure you're winning, but how can you enjoy it when you're not playing the game properly (it's just in this case it isn't our choice to play it properly, it's been decided for us by the terribly implemented MM and MMR system)

 

[just Scott]

rufus are you training your aim? At its core this game is still an fps, the people with the better aim usually win. I went on a stint of playing CSGO for 2-3 months and really practised my aim. I went into bot maps and just headshot bots for 30 mins a day really concentrating on my aim, as well as playing competitive matchmaking and community 5v5s. I came back to Overwatch a few weeks ago and I could really feel the difference in my aim, especially on Widow and Hanzo. CSGO is like the hardmode of aiming games - headshotting people as Widow just felt easier after all that practise.

If you're willing to actually practise and improve it might be worth focusing on your aim for a while. I'm not saying play CSGO because it's not a game for everyone. But make sure your sensitivity is low enough that you have to use your arm for big movements and wrist for small movements (30cm or more for a 360 is usually recommended). Maybe hammer out some quick play as Widow/Mccree/Soldier/Hanzo and really focus on your aim. Don't worry about winning or teamwork, just put 100% concentration on hitting shots. That's how I've always played Overwatch and I consistently get master with only 300-400 hours played. I don't think I'm particularly good at the game at all. My gamesense just comes from playing TF2 for 1000s of hours which is a similar game. My hero and composition knowledge is crap compared to most platinum players probably. I literally just care about hitting shots and it works for me.

 

[Worthy]

Yeah, being able to kill people will always win you games. I'm the same, I generally only play McCree nowadays in DM. Haven't played comp in a while.

 

[booyaka]

Yeah, being able to kill people will always win you games. I'm the same, I generally only play McCree nowadays in DM. Haven't played comp in a while.

I would agree - the game is very bias towards good/bad dps players - if you go with the "standard" 2 support/2dps/2tank - Healers will generally be similar output levels between them both. Tanks will do a similar job but the whole team/who wins is massively reliant on the dps players.

80% of games are won with the team who has the best 2 dps players. The dps player is the critical part of the equation. I think that's why I get frustrated as a support/tank player - which ever team has the best mcree/hanzo/widow/solider etc wins most of the time despite what the tanks/support/healers do.

 

[imginy]

As support or tank you can still turn the match in your favour by identifying who the good players are.

It helps to figure out who is the best player on your team and make sure they stay alive. For example if you have a really good widow go mercy and pocket them or if you have a really good genji go zarya and bubble them.

There's no point wasting healing on terrible players for example if you have a phara on your team that can't aim there is no point in going mercy and pocketing them. Instead of just having 1 useless player you end up with 2.

It helps to identify any good players on the other team and call out for every one to focus them and switch to counter them. Like if they have an amazing doomfist you wanna get a mcree and road hog and get everyone to focus him then he will no longer be an issue no matter how good he is.


If all the dps on your team sucks it's obviously a loss.

 

[Stu]

I would agree - the game is very bias towards good/bad dps players - if you go with the "standard" 2 support/2dps/2tank - Healers will generally be similar output levels between them both. Tanks will do a similar job but the whole team/who wins is massively reliant on the dps players.

80% of games are won with the team who has the best 2 dps players. The dps player is the critical part of the equation. I think that's why I get frustrated as a support/tank player - which ever team has the best mcree/hanzo/widow/solider etc wins most of the time despite what the tanks/support/healers do.

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with the newer heroes that have been added to the game and the dive strategy. For the tanks, Winston/Dva is very different than Rein/Zarya; Moira has burst multi-hero healing, which is different to the other healers, Moira and Zen will also rack up a load of damage compared to Mercy/Ana; and a good Mercy, boosting as well as healing, plus rez can be priceless - I think she is still a must pick on the team, but isn't always picked due to people preferring to play healers that also have an offensive aspect. The addition of Brigitte adds more variation to the tank and healer picks, though it is interesting to see that OWL teams substitute a DPS hero for Brigitte rather than a tank or healer.

I expect that it is different at Plat, but in gold there are often teams without Mercy (which I think is bad), teams that think Brig can carry as a healer, and teams that pick the wrong combination of tanks or the wrong tanks for the map, or you find you have a Widow and a Hanzo as your DPS! There are still too many teams that don't properly synergise, and a good tank/healer player with the right hero can make a huge difference. However, a good Widow, Tracer or Genji can also make a huge difference!

 

[just Scott]

As support or tank you can still turn the match in your favour by identifying who the good players are.

It helps to figure out who is the best player on your team and make sure they stay alive. For example if you have a really good widow go mercy and pocket them or if you have a really good genji go zarya and bubble them.

There's no point wasting healing on terrible players for example if you have a phara on your team that can't aim there is no point in going mercy and pocketing them. Instead of just having 1 useless player you end up with 2.

It helps to identify any good players on the other team and call out for every one to focus them and switch to counter them. Like if they have an amazing doomfist you wanna get a mcree and road hog and get everyone to focus him then he will no longer be an issue no matter how good he is.

I absolutely agree with this. This is going to sound totally arrogant and I apologise for it but the best session of Overwatch I had was when a Mercy main literally pocketed me 100% when I played solider, mccree and widow. We won almost every game because we had a dps player that was allowed to be in a position to just frag as efficiently as possible. It was a 6 stack so we had an Ana that was healing the rest of the team, but I was getting healed from the Mercy 100% of the time.

I like to think I have decent aim, but that doesn't matter. I think in the situation I've described it is beneficial, no matter how good the dps is, is to keep him healed. The worst games I have these days is when I play Mccree and don't get healed.
Even if I have an off day and can't hit anything, being healed constantly allows me to at least the chance to carry and win the game. The best supports I've played with have 1 thing in common, they always keep the dps alive.

 

[Stu]

There is also a lot to be said for teams that use voice comms and those that don't... I reckon a lot of the snowball matches happen due to a team communicating and coordinating rather than skill difference.

 

[Stu]

I absolutely agree with this. This is going to sound totally arrogant and I apologise for it but the best session of Overwatch I had was when a Mercy main literally pocketed me 100% when I played solider, mccree and widow. We won almost every game because we had a dps player that was allowed to be in a position to just frag as efficiently as possible. It was a 6 stack so we had an Ana that was healing the rest of the team, but I was getting healed from the Mercy 100% of the time.

I like to think I have decent aim, but that doesn't matter. I think in the situation I've described is beneficial, no matter how good the dps is, is to keep him healed. The worst games I have these days is when I play Mccree and don't get healed.
Even if I have an off day and can't hit anything, being healed constantly allows me to at least the chance to carry and win the game. The best supports I've played with have 1 thing in common, they always keep the dps alive.

Interestingly, watching OWL, the first priority of the healer appears to be keeping the other healer alive, then the tanks, with DPS last.

I'll admit that I'm not good enough to carry a team as DPS at my level, and my effectiveness can be dependent on my teammates... good tanks that draw the focus of the opposition allow me to go to town when I play Soldier, and obviously a good healer that keeps you in the game longer makes a big impact on final stats, so I recognise the importance of a good tank and healer. Obviously I don't become a fundamentally good or bad player from one match to the next, so there are obviously other factors that impact my stats for a given game.

 

[just Scott]

Oh for sure. Not saying OWL is a bad reference but it's important to understand that in OWL it's 6 people that have played together a lot and it's a different environment to matchmaking. Ive always thought a lot can be learnt from competitive matches but you can't apply it 100% to matchmaking.

 

[Stu]

Oh for sure. Not saying OWL is a bad reference but it's important to understand that in OWL it's 6 people that have played together a lot and it's a different environment to matchmaking. Ive always thought a lot can be learnt from competitive matches but you can't apply it 100% to matchmaking.

I agree that OWL is different in several aspects. I feel no shame in playing Torb on a couple of maps, but I still haven't seen him used in OWL matches!

 

[uncle_rufus]

Too many replies to dig through quoting... but Scott:

I've played tons of TF2 and plenty of CS:GO in the past (though not loads of the latter, always been more of an arena-shooter man so probably put the most hours into Unreal + Quake in the past)... and I did used to use the headshot practice and the shooting range etc. workshop maps in CS:GO quite a bit to practice aim, as well as playing mcree a fair bit in deathmatch or quickplay when I don't feel like playing comp. I suppose you can always get better than you are and I don't consider myself an absolutely incredible player mechanically (but not terrible either)...

I play the tanks in Overwatch though because:
A. I like the play-style of the tanks, it's interesting and varied...
B. Too many matches have 2 or 3 or 4 instalock dps who can't play tanks to save their lives...

Still though, in games where I',m tank and it becomes obvious our dps aren't doing a good enough job, or are just flatout failing to counter what the enemy are doing; example from the other day; enemy team had junk, mei and brig.... obvious to pick pharah but nobody would (I politely suggested it first but no-one even replied)... I'm pretty good with her myself (thanks Quake!) so I switched and tried to counter (one of our dps took the hint and switched to tank)... got plenty of kills on them but it didn't make much of a difference - even if I managed to pick off the brig and another of their dps (or sometimes even both) the rest of my team had managed to die, with me following just after...

As mentioned above when I play tank I focus on positioning and keeping the supports and dps alive whilst keeping half an eye out for any opportunistic kills I can go for without abandoning people or throwing my own life away... I always group up, I make call outs, rotate around the tanks depending on what the other team are doing, and generally do everything else that supposedly is meant to be the right way to play... I do look out for who on their team is the current main problem and either counter them myself (if a suitable tank pick does so) or focus on helping whoever on our team does counter them to stay alive...

But anyway all of this is somewhat irrelevant because I don't even want to climb particularly (I'll be happy in a way if I do but I can accept my rank being what it is) - what I want is for the matchmaking to provide games that are remotely balanced and fun to play, not just stomp after stomp after stomp...

 

[imginy]

Interestingly, watching OWL, the first priority of the healer appears to be keeping the other healer alive, then the tanks, with DPS last.

In overwatch league there is no bad players so it's completely different.

In match making if you wanna rank up really you need to focus on healing your best player/players first.

If your busy healing a bad player that's constantly taking damage and killing no one all your doing is feeding the enemy ults, mean while a good player on your team is having to play conservatively and not building much ult.

If you consentrate your healing on your players with good aim whether it be a zarya or a genji whatever they will be able to play aggressive build ult fast and wipe out the enemy team.

Hope this makes sence lol.

The best thing you can do as a healer is find a good dps player pocket them and then invite them to team up after the match.

 

[AndyCr15]

I reckon a lot of the snowball matches happen due to a team communicating and coordinating rather than skill difference.

For me, this makes a huge difference to if I enjoy the match or not. I don't mind losing a game if we're all trying, making suggestions, switching characters and all that and no-one is getting salty.

 

[imginy]

Yeah after a snowball if people start getting toxic the game is lost.

If you can switch it up you can still win.

 

[booyaka]

For me, this makes a huge difference to if I enjoy the match or not. I don't mind losing a game if we're all trying, making suggestions, switching characters and all that and no-one is getting salty.

100% - zero issues with this. if you have 4 or 5 people in comms - I reckon you win 75/80% of the games.