Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - MMO on Kickstarter

The old school mmo players that loved eq are now mid to late 40's with limited playtime, I think even those types won't be that impressed with older mmo mechanics anymore.

I'd also add that xp loss mechanics are hugely overblown, in eq you'd have a cleric with a 96% XP Res in your group or have multiple in your friend list, hell I rocked a necro alt in addition to a cleric for the complete corpse summon and rez experience.

You'd be surprised, my entire guild is late 40s and above and we've actually got more playtime than we used to have in recent years because all our kids are now grown and/or left home, meaning that for the first time since our teens/20's we have fewer responsibilities and more playtime again and still loving the old school mechanics as much as ever :)
 
The old school mmo players that loved eq are now mid to late 40's with limited playtime, I think even those types won't be that impressed with older mmo mechanics anymore.

/QUOTE]

Talking about other people and putting words in their mouth seems like you should think again about that.
You have no idea what they want.

An MMO should take around 4 years to have an beta online to play in what today is early release and update as they go along to full release.
Once it passes 6 years as Pantheon has it may never be anything.
Once Brad died I figured this will crumble and die slowly.

Pace of play is about how fast you burn trough content.
Today you be max level in an hour in games which then invalidate the content you progress trough.
The value of content drops off the faster the pace you burn trough.
Group centric, aka old dungeon and Mud games or the paper and pen had people interacting.
It was what EQ did, being paper and pen to a 3D video game.

WoW ruined that.
made more money but was bad.

Group centric mud games are niche gameplay but rewarding and then the team of developers need to adress that group when they design.
To me it seems they had to much design visions that was beyond that.
 
@RBImGuy I had that same fear, that when Brad died the game would die not long after, instead I've been impressed with how they've kicked on rather than crumbling to nothing. Time will still tell whether it makes it all the way, if it does then maybe there will be hope for me in the MMO genre, if it doesnt then I think thats probably the end of the genre for me
 
The majority of mmo releases post wow have had a 6 year announcement to release schedule though?

SWToR being the exception with around 4 and a half years, then again people that played it at launch agreed it needed at least another year in the beta phase ironing out all the niggley bugs and certain gameplay elements.
 
The old school mmo players that loved eq are now mid to late 40's with limited playtime, I think even those types won't be that impressed with older mmo mechanics anymore.
That really depends on whether you think newer gen mechanics were better or worse.

There are a group of us who would readily describe many newer-gen MMO mechanics as being holistically worse.

That's not to say we should recreate a 1990s MMO exactly to the letter - they also had faults. But by and large, newer MMOs lost much in their pursuit of easy solo, accessibility, instant gratification, etc. There is room for games that make the journey long and challenging. And rich with storytelling, intrigue, and mystique. Hidden details, vast depth.
 
That really depends on whether you think newer gen mechanics were better or worse.

There are a group of us who would readily describe many newer-gen MMO mechanics as being holistically worse.

That's not to say we should recreate a 1990s MMO exactly to the letter - they also had faults. But by and large, newer MMOs lost much in their pursuit of easy solo, accessibility, instant gratification, etc. There is room for games that make the journey long and challenging. And rich with storytelling, intrigue, and mystique. Hidden details, vast depth.

Well, as with most things what's better now compared to older content is subjective. But for me: 1. instanced content that's done right. By that I mean progression raid encounters, 100% needs to be instanced, otherwise all sorts of crap can and will happen (guilds messing with other guilds for a start). Certain dungeon content should be instanced, but this ties into my number 2. Instances also let's devs tune content to be harder in my opinion. Times have moved on from 'just throw yourselves at this dragon for 3 hours and it will eventually fall down dead'. I remember my 1st time raiding Vox in eq very fondly, would I want to experience that in this day and age? Hell no. Being a cleric in a cheal rotation? Good god that was dull, at least I could watch TV whilst pressing one button every minute to 2 minutes mind you.
2. Overarching expansion quest story telling (think ff14's msq) and class storytelling (swtors) - if you have NPC's that either need to be killed or interacted with out in the wilds then these also need to be in an instanced area. There were times in eq where I was stuck for weeks on end trying to get my water sprinkler as other groups of clerics would be farming the required mob that i needed a drop from, there's zero need for that in a modern mmo.
3. This one will be contentious, a lfr tool of some description... ONLY if your story has elements woven into raiding. I don't mean a lfg tool for dungeon content either.

Things that modern mmos have adopted that need to go away? Outside of automatching dungeon tools and 3rd party UI accessories the main thing for me would be how any sort of progression or gear is invalidated the moment a new patch drops. Armour and weapons need to hold a certain value from older content to keep that content relevant. I suppose that would boil down to a vertical power gain as opposed to a horizontal gain. There's no need for initial 'endgame' content to be vastly lower in item power to the higher tiered content for example.

I keep seeing the older mmo player knocking solo play, but every now and then there's comes a time when you just wanna chill by yourself and progress, there has to be a happy balance between the 2 that's outside of rolling a class that is able to solo grp content ala Everquests necros/druids/wizards or vanilla WoW's mages/hunters/prot paladins. Ideally you would have solo play areas in zones, be it abandoned crypts or keeps where someone could go and still have progression of their XP bar but at a much reduced rate compared to group play. Or even some sort of events where you have to keep a village safe from an encroaching army be it through dpsing down enemies or keeping your side alive if your a healer. To keep it from being exploited you just have XP reduced to zero if you don't deal the vast majority of damage/healing. ****** example I admit, but there's hundreds of ways to encourage and have good solo play that doesn't detract from group play. If people start griefing solo play well that's where the community comes in or active GM's.
 
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Well, as with most things what's better now compared to older content is subjective. But for me: 1. instanced content that's done right. By that I mean progression raid encounters, 100% needs to be instanced, otherwise all sorts of crap can and will happen (guilds messing with other guilds for a start). Certain dungeon content should be instanced, but this ties into my number 2. Instances also let's devs tune content to be harder in my opinion. Times have moved on from 'just throw yourselves at this dragon for 3 hours and it will eventually fall down dead'. I remember my 1st time raiding Vox in eq very fondly, would I want to experience that in this day and age? Hell no.
2. Overarching expansion quest story telling (think ff14's msq) and class storytelling (swtors) - if you have NPC's that either need to be killed or interacted with out in the wilds then these also need to be in an instanced area. There were times in eq where I was stuck for weeks on end trying to get my water sprinkler as other groups of clerics would be farming the required mob that i needed a drop from, there's zero need for that in a modern mmo.
3. This one will be contentious, a lfr tool of some description... ONLY if your story has elements woven into raiding. I don't mean a lfg tool for dungeon content either.

Things that modern mmos have adopted that need to go away? Outside of automatching dungeon tools and 3rd party UI accessories the main thing for me would be how any sort of progression or gear is invalidated the moment a new patch drops. Armour and weapons need to hold a certain value from older content to keep that content relevant. I suppose that would boil down to a vertical power gain as opposed to a horizontal gain. There's no need for initial 'endgame' content to be vastly lower in item power to the higher tiered content for example.

I keep seeing the older mmo player knocking solo play, but every now and then there's comes a time when you just wanna chill by yourself and progress, there has to be a happy balance between the 2 that's outside of rolling a class that is able to solo grp content ala Everquests necros/druids/wizards or vanilla WoW's mages/hunters/prot paladins. Ideally you would have solo play areas in zones, be it abandoned crypts or keeps where someone could go and still have progression of their XP bar but at a much reduced rate compared to group play. To keep it from being exploited you just have XP reduced to zero if you don't deal the vast majority of damage. If people start griefing solo play well that's where the community comes into play or active GM's.
Well I did solo a *lot* in EQ. By it wasn't easy. You could also duo in many places with success.

What I mean by "easy solo" is where grouping isn't even beneficial. In fact the downsides of having to deal with other players can make solo the better option.

I wouldn't disagree with everything you said, although I'm not a fan of instancing in general. I prefer the experience with 0 instances - warts and all.

As for other things in modern MMOs I hate -

*GPS maps. No need to learn the lie of the land, just open your map and know instantly where you are and where you need to go. Bleh.
*Quests that are telegraphed and braindead. You see a guy with a "?" over his head. You click him. You skip the flavour text because you don't even have to read it. You open your GPS map and go to the quest marker, conveniently telling you where you need to go. You briefly check the quest log and see you need to kill 250 boars. You kill the boars. You open your GPS map and navigate back to the quest giver, who now has a "!" glowing and pulsing above him. You realise a monkey could be trained to do what you just did. And that is apparently a "quest". Laughable.
*Button mashing combat. At some point designers decides it would be more fun for players to stare at two or three rows of icons, waiting for them to refresh/pop, instead of looking at the world rendered before them. Then they made it so that you have to push a button (in sequence) at least once a second just to do your job. And yet it's always the same sequence and absolutely no thought is required once you've learned the correct sequence. Then you repeat this button mashing every single mob over and over, amen.
*Static NPCs and no reward for inquisitive players. In EQ I remember being blown away, finding hidden quests by following NPCs and eavesdropping on their conversations. Some of them would only interact once a day, and would (appear to) move from zone to zone. You could spend hours in a city zone just finding out what's going on, listening to the NPCs chat, walk around, drop clues, etc. In modern MMOs the NPCs are just standing around waiting for a player to notice them and dish out quests. They don't even move. They are vending machines.

Etc. I could go on for hours :p
 
Modern maps have just taken the need for players to go to a website and print them out though? I had pages and pages of printed out dungeons for eq whilst learning the routes lol

And yes having a big shiny ! hanging over a NPC's head takes away from the world and exploration. 2 of the best quests I've ever been apart of were both from eq.. my cleric epic weapon and the coldain shawl/ring quest.

Disclaimer, it wasn't me that was mental enough to even think of starting the shawl one but the GM from my eq guild.. god bless her
 
What I mean by "easy solo" is where grouping isn't even beneficial.

This is one of the predominant things which destroyed modern MMOs and one of the reasons why modern MMOs consist of people joining your group to do quest A/dungeon A and saying hi (if you are lucky) , saying nothing more for the duration and then saying cya (if you are lucky) and leaving. When I think back to UO, DAOC and EQ, there was so much downtime regening health and mana in between each pull that you inevitably chatted with the people around you, it promoted community and a sense that you were playing with actual other players (ticked box here for Pantheon and its long regen times). Likewise the shared dungeons with many groups in (rather than instanced just for your group) , meant that you chatted to other groups as you passed them and made note of their character names so that in the event of a group wipe you could message them and ask them to try and reach you to rez you. Again, promoting community.

Maps and telegraphed quests were also rubbish and again detracted from community, you just looked at where your groupmate was on a map and ran toward them , thats it. With no map your group mate had to actually guide you (ie... head to the bridge, cross over, head along the road til you reach the fallen tree, turn east and we're in the cave by the small lake... etc). Yet another ticked box for Pantheon :)
 
Discord and voice chatting has overtaken whatever function party/guild chat used to take though. Long gone are the days that green text flies by as folks are shooting the **** on Comms, from my experience anyway.
 
Discord and voice chatting has overtaken whatever function party/guild chat used to take though. Long gone are the days that green text flies by as folks are shooting the **** on Comms, from my experience anyway.

Discord/voice chat between friends yes but I'm on about people outside of your group, those people wont be on your guilds discord/voice chat. In the old MMOs I would have conversations with all sorts of random people outside of my group, you just dont get that much these days or if you do the person is invariably behaving like a ****

The community aspect has been ruined in modern MMOs by making soloing such a thing that people have no need to bother communicating with strangers. I've seen more inter player talking in 1 hour of Pantheon pre-alpha than I've seen in 1 month of the newer styled MMOs
 
Modern maps have just taken the need for players to go to a website and print them out though? I had pages and pages of printed out dungeons for eq whilst learning the routes lol

And yes having a big shiny ! hanging over a NPC's head takes away from the world and exploration. 2 of the best quests I've ever been apart of were both from eq.. my cleric epic weapon and the coldain shawl/ring quest.

Disclaimer, it wasn't me that was mental enough to even think of starting the shawl one but the GM from my eq guild.. god bless her
There's a huge difference between an in-game map and an in-game "GPS map," where you can literally just guide your player's dot around the map rather than have to learn the zone.

A map without a "you are here!" marker is not that much different to a map you find on a spoiler site. It's the GPS bit that completely ruins the fun of learning your way around.

Also the GPS maps tend to show the "quest item here!" markers as well as your player position, and as Tombstone said group members and all sorts. A GPS map belongs in a car, not an MMO, especially if it's a ye olde world setting :p
 
I wish i had the time for a MMO.

Hopefully by the time i retire VR will be such a great position i can spend the rest of my days slaying dragons and griefing crafters... as well crafting is just ****ing ****.
 
I wish i had the time for a MMO.

Hopefully by the time i retire VR will be such a great position i can spend the rest of my days slaying dragons and griefing crafters... as well crafting is just ****ing ****.
By the time pantheon releases you will be retired.. badom tish
 
Just catching up on a few of the large post's I to miss the MMO I was never a EQ, or WOW player my years were spent playing Anarchy Online, Age of Conan, the secret world and a dash of star wars (the second one)

AOC was very very good, but then they released an expansion where it turned into grind fest for anything.
 
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