Paying a garage to fix a problem and having the problem come back

[TW]Fox;22045345 said:
A used good engine from a crashed car is surely the best solution?
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One here:

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:)
 
On Friday I took the car to Castle Coombe for a track day, I did two 15 min sessions before I got a knocking noise from the engine. The car was turned off then towed back to the garage where I’ve had all work done. This is the summary of the inspection:


  • No3 rod big end bearing has spun inside rod housing
  • Spun bearing the crankshaft has suffered excess wear/damage to the journal
  • The remaining big end bearings have been inspected and all show signs of “pick up/oil starvation”
  • The main bearings on journals 2,3 and 4 (1 and 5 have not been looked at)– same here, pick up/wear through oil starvation.
  • No3 big end bearing which spun has shed lots of material through the motor so all oil passageways will need to be thoroughly cleaned out and quite possibly a new oil pump required (won’t know until pump removed and stripped for inspection of gears).
  • Possible damage to the top of the piston and underside of cylinder head – head can normally be cleaned up but piston would need thorough inspection.

A replacement crankshaft and conrod are the instant requirements for repair/rebuild along with gaskets and bearings etc of course but other items such as piston, oil pump would not be known until full strip is performed.

*As a side note, the first thing we did was check the oil level – halfway between min and max was showing on the dipstick. This is not enough for track work (We always recommend running a good 3-5mm over the max mark for peace of mind) especially at places like Castle Combe with it’s right/left/right through the first chicane and old paddock bend. This is the highest likelihood area of the track for oil surge/starvation issues.
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The car had a full dipstick mark of oil the day before. The trip there was 20 miles, two 15min sessions and then the in lap to the carpark where it then didn't move. I then with a person there (has the same engine and knows them well) tried to diagnose the issue, we added a full litre of oil, and it went back up to full (His car was going flat out all day, used a drop of oil on the dip stick).

The car has been back a few times this is the history:

09/12/11----£168----In for Diagnostic Oil usage/smoking+ O2 sensor
12/12/11----£800----Deposit and major work starts
23/01/12----£3148----Out
21/03/12----£148 ----In/Out for leaking Sump and installation of a Baffled Sump
04/04/12-------------In - Oil usage, Piston Rings not taken
12/05/12----FOC----Out
20/11/12-------------In - Diagnostic, Oil Usage/smoking
26/11/12----£134----Out - PCV Valve Sticking (replaced), Gasket plug seals and plugs replaced


This is the back of the car in April 2012 after the piston rings didn't take on #3:

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Lots of black on the back where the oil's burning, this is a tell-tale sign that something wrong.

These are pictures I took at Combe, the colouring is similar:

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It's clean on the other side where there's no exhaust:

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I'm just updating as I want to ask, what would you do?

If I take it to a civil court 'the balance of probabilities' requires a need to convince a judge that my case is 51% likely to be true (more plausible than the other side).

My case would be that I maintained the car correctly but it still had an underlying oil consumption issue which caused it to starve itself whilst on track. I think that I did what would typically be expected as in I serviced it and maintain the oil level.

Would the requirement of me to prove it wasn't up to spec be wasted? Is it too circumstantial to prove? Does the burden lie with both of us? Comments welcome, and please, be honest.
 
They are probably right tbh, bit of a oil starvation at high rpm/full load will destroy a bottom end in the blink of an eye. I find it totally amazing that Honda don't have any kind of baffling in the sump, especially a Type-R model meant to be made for this kind of use.
 
That is so ****, and avoidable I would have not mentioned tracking it but you weren't to know I suppose.

Even then, you got the sump baffled didn't you? Therefore the correct level of oil the day before is perfectly fine.
 
Clarkey said:
IDK? Would be unlucky even if he didn't tbh, plenty of Hondas rock it around tracks without problems.
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Theoretically speaking, there is nothing I can't achieve g force wise on track that I can't on a road. I've never theoretically knocked an engine to pieces by driving it like that either..

If the sump was baffled then it wasn't pump pickup starvation (notwithstanding a blockage in the filter), it was something with the oil galleries or bearings themselves. Perhaps even the oil.
 
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It was baffled by him on 21/03/12, it was confirmed by him as a good idea should it ever see track work. There was a Civic with the same engine running flat out all day on much sticker rubber than I had with no issues.

If it was a pickup issues due to a pump blockage would that then cause it to burn it's oil in the amount it did? Or does it then come back to it died because there wasn't enough oil because it had burnt it all.
 
No and I'd want to keep it that way, I'm sure most Honda owners here know who it is. I figure it's unfair to taint Google with his name when he's not here to defend himself. I guess it's only fair when we're discussing possibilities.
 
Muffin` said:
It was baffled by him on 21/03/12, it was confirmed by him as a good idea should it ever see track work. There was a Civic with the same engine running flat out all day on much sticker rubber than I had with no issues.

If it was a pickup issues due to a pump blockage would that then cause it to burn it's oil in the amount it did? Or does it then come back to it died because there wasn't enough oil because it had burnt it all.
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No, I suspect another spun bearing tbh.

I just mentioned oil pick up as a theoretical problem, which it would be, but I'm hoping there wasn't bits of crap floating around your sump beforehand in any event.
 
I expect the counter argument to be, has the car performed correctly since November last year, and when was it last serviced and by who?
 
I'd put it down the experience and move on. Don't drag it out as it will stress you out and get messy.

It's not the end of the world losing a few K. Millions of people do it every year on new cars!
 
Biohazard said:
No, I suspect another spun bearing tbh.

I just mentioned oil pick up as a theoretical problem, which it would be, but I'm hoping there wasn't bits of crap floating around your sump beforehand in any event.
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That was a line of thought, bit of crap off the baffled plate welding jammed up a pipe, but now with swarf everywhere in it's impossible to tell.


Berger said:
I expect the counter argument to be, has the car performed correctly since November last year, and when was it last serviced and by who?
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Serviced by me, it's only oil+filter every 6k. He never voiced any opposition against that idea. Could I have caused the oil consumption issue, if so, how? If there's no way he can prove I did, does that make my plight more believable?


Simon said:
I'd put it down the experience and move on. Don't drag it out as it will stress you out and get messy.

It's not the end of the world losing a few K. Millions of people do it every year on new cars!
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You're right at the end of the day, I want the car back and running and it's not that much money.

New engine is 2k or repair the old one which is £1.5-£2K parts+labour, decisions decisions !
 
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