PC Gaming and the problem with parity.

Soldato
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Modding is great, transformed a lot of games for me. Sorely miss being able to make your own maps in MP games :(



PC is nowhere as good at doing dynamic resolution, only certain titles are i.e. battlefield 1 and star wars battlefront. Digital foundry did a very good video on this saying about how PC/developers really need to do a better job on the PC version of games for this as currently consoles method/games are much better.

What do you mean by console optimisation? The games are optimised first and foremost for consoles hence why they are able to get such good performance for the games "considering" the hardware consoles have.... Where as with PC, you "generally" need better hardware to be able to achieve the same. Also look at what consoles are capable of when they are the only platform to be optimised for i.e. last of us, HZD, uncharted and so on. The only real true PC graphically/technically driven title we have had is crysis and I doubt we will ever see a game like that again.

And you can make low FPS feel/look better via numerous methods:

1. sync optimisation i.e. just look at g/free sync and compare what 30 fps feels/looks like with it turned on/off

2. One big factor which helps especially on consoles since they generally can't turn it off.... is motion blur

3. Use a controller, as touched upon earlier, 30 fps feels far better with a pad than M+K, even on PC

Still, as I said, 30 fps isn't great as no matter what you do, the motion clarity + responsiveness still suffers but it isn't as bad as what people make out imo and after a while, your eyes adjust. Also, hook up whatever console or PC to a decent/responsive display and 30 fps won't look as bad i.e. 30 fps feels/looks far better on my OLED TV than on my IPS monitor.

HDR only works on certain 9xx and 10xx and 4xx, 5xx, vega GPUs and even then it doesn't work anywhere as well on the PC as it does with consoles, a few on here ended up getting a console purely just to have a faff free HDR gaming experience, no doubt it will get better over time though. Also, most people who have good gaming PCs will want to use a dedicated gaming "monitor" i.e. g/free sync etc. and all of the current monitors on the market are absolute crap for "HDR", they don't come anywhere close to the requirements for it, not to mention, the true high end HDR TVs will look far better than any current HDR monitor.



If anything I would say PC gaming has been on the decline especially on this forum, I've seen a lot of PC gamers switch to console over the last 1-2 years and even more so over the last few months due to the prices sky rocketing across the market, also know of quite a few who have had enough with PC gaming irl too. Although they have all moved for various reasons i.e. cheaters plaguing PC, more fair play on consoles (i.e. everyone has same hardware, same graphic settings + FPS on console and so on).

You just need to look at all the statistics, triple A titles is where consoles rake in the money, PC not so much, the vast majority of profit for PC gaming comes from titles such as overwatch, CS:GO, LOL and so on.



Problem is, even for a somewhat decent rig, it still costs more than a xbox one x/ps 4 pro and a mid range system like that won't have anywhere near the same longevity as the console.

As I've said before on here, if you are going to do PC gaming for wanting to get all the main benefits i.e. slightly better graphics and consistently higher FPS (especially for those that want 100 FPS at a minimum) then you need to spend ££££ and you will have to be prepared to set aside some £££ every year for upgrades if you want to keep the "true" PC experience.

Care to link me the DF video that claims dynamic resolution implementation is worse on PCs? PC gamers also get the option of 60fps+ and lower resolution or 30 fps and higher resolution. The list of pc games that support dynamic res is only growing with most recent AAA games supporting it (origins, shadow of mordor etc).

I meant exactly that. There is no such thing as console optimization, console hardware gets you the same amount of performance as an equivalent specced pc. Pick a recent multiplat game check the tflop performance of the console, find an equivalent gpu and go check on benchmarks and you'll see what I'm talking about. Skilled exclusive developers can use fake tricks to make things look nicer than what they really are but that's it, consoles don't run on fairy dust.

Yes you can make lower fps more tolerable to some people (I cant stand it no matter what) and the superior method for that is pc exclusive (gsync).

HDR works just fine on PC, its up to your TV/monitor to support HDR10. However, sweetfx can provide something similar and pc gamers have had that for ages so many pc gamers don't care about HDR, plus you can have full control of sweetfx and pc gamers just love having control of things. Not to mention Virtual Reality which is the ultimate gaming experience you can have right now is far superior on PC.

A few bitter posts fueled by some temporary price hikes because of mining and you think pc gaming is in decline? Oh sweet summer child, the most popular games in the world are on pc PUGG, league of legends, wow, counter strike gs etc. Twitchtv, youtube, esports are also dominated by PC gaming and pc hardware channels alone have millions of subscribers. If your game is not on PC its bound to become irrelevant in a month or two after its release. Steam breaks user records every year consistently and its the biggest gaming platform. Yes triple AAA games tend to sell more on consoles especially during the first month of their lifecycle but that's because console gamers have a different mentality spending money that they did not earn (parents pocket money etc)...

Of course PCs are more expansive they are they ultimate modern machines that the world depends on. Yes if you want the best prepare to pay a lot and that's true for everything.
 
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Soldato
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There is no such thing as console optimization, console hardware gets you the same amount of performance as an equivalent specced pc.

There is a potential difference in that the PC still has the overhead of the operating system and any background tasks to deal with, not to mention certain hardware configurations which may not "play nice" with the particular engine. Whereas console versions are coded for a very specific set of hardware and so it is far easier to optimise for that particular hardware rather than having to ensure compatibility across a whole spectrum of PC components from multiple manufacturers and generations
 
Soldato
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There is a potential difference in that the PC still has the overhead of the operating system and any background tasks to deal with, not to mention certain hardware configurations which may not "play nice" with the particular engine. Whereas console versions are coded for a very specific set of hardware and so it is far easier to optimise for that particular hardware rather than having to ensure compatibility across a whole spectrum of PC components from multiple manufacturers and generations
Such overheards are insignificant with modern hardware and performance differences are most of the time within the margin of error.
 
Soldato
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I'm fan of both but I agree that it's getting harder to justify PC component pricing.

I however like the flexibility of a PC. I was just playing Destiny 2 on my couch on a 4k TV but I ran it maxed at 1440p/60 (yes I know it has an internal scaler) with my Razer hydra motion controllers. Those are two things I couldn't do on console. On other games modding keeps me coming back.

I'm not sure if that is enough to get me to keep buying components especially at these inflated prices.
 
Soldato
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I always have the latest console and hardware, gaming is my number 1 interest, that will never change, PC gaming will always be number one of platform, some games are just meant to be played with k/B and mouse, controllers and FPS feel about as right as mucky bum *****.
 
Caporegime
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Care to link me the DF video that claims dynamic resolution implementation is worse on PCs? PC gamers also get the option of 60fps+ and lower resolution or 30 fps and higher resolution. The list of pc games that support dynamic res is only growing with most recent AAA games supporting it (origins, shadow of mordor etc).

I meant exactly that. There is no such thing as console optimization, console hardware gets you the same amount of performance as an equivalent specced pc. Pick a recent multiplat game check the tflop performance of the console, find an equivalent gpu and go check on benchmarks and you'll see what I'm talking about. Skilled exclusive developers can use fake tricks to make things look nicer than what they really are but that's it, consoles don't run on fairy dust.

Yes you can make lower fps more tolerable to some people (I cant stand it no matter what) and the superior method for that is pc exclusive (gsync).

HDR works just fine on PC, its up to your TV/monitor to support HDR10. However, sweetfx can provide something similar and pc gamers have had that for ages so many pc gamers don't care about HDR, plus you can have full control of sweetfx and pc gamers just love having control of things. Not to mention Virtual Reality which is the ultimate gaming experience you can have right now is far superior on PC.

A few bitter posts fueled by some temporary price hikes because of mining and you think pc gaming is in decline? Oh sweet summer child, the most popular games in the world are on pc PUGG, league of legends, wow, counter strike gs etc. Twitchtv, youtube, esports are also dominated by PC gaming and pc hardware channels alone have millions of subscribers. If your game is not on PC its bound to become irrelevant in a month or two after its release. Steam breaks user records every year consistently and its the biggest gaming platform. Yes triple AAA games tend to sell more on consoles especially during the first month of their lifecycle but that's because console gamers have a different mentality spending money that they did not earn (parents pocket money etc)...

Of course PCs are more expansive they are they ultimate modern machines that the world depends on. Yes if you want the best prepare to pay a lot and that's true for everything.


HDR can not be done via sweetfx, you need the physical requirements on the display for proper HDR support, anything that doesn't meet the required requirements is just fake HDR. Sweetfx's built in option labelled HDR is not the same thing and all it does is crush blacks/shadow detail, blow out whites/contrast etc. Have you actually seen proper HDR in person? As in a reference grade film such as pacific rim on an OLED? If so, you should be able to clearly see that what it does on a proper setup with supported content is very impressive (hence why a vast majority of films are being remastered with it)

Sweetfx is no doubt good on the whole although I have stopped using it unless a game such as dishonored 1 badly needs it. Pretty much every sweetfx config I see/try is completely over saturated, blown out details i.e. definition in the sky/clouds is removed and so on, it seems to be used more often than not by people who have awful/uncalibrated/inaccurate displays.....

VR is nice but still in the very early stages, give it another couple of years and then maybe more people will jump on it, not to mention have more games supporting it, no doubt the next gen consoles will jump on this ship and probably end up doing it better than the PC in the end or at the very least, get a lot more people and developers to jump aboard and support it better.

Don't take my word for it, you just have to go back and look at various threads of similar nature to this that have been posted on here over the last 1-2 years and this was before the massive price increases, people just aren't happy to see graphics being similar as the top end consoles and games being released in a broken state for PC and not getting fixed for weeks/months i.e. look at batman arkham knight, completely broken and was even missing a couple of graphical effects on the PC side. Graphics was the main reason I switched from console to Pc in the first place, performance is nice but not worth the extra £££ imo especially when you still have to drop settings to get a "constant" 60+ FPS.

You do realise that a lot of big youtubers/twitchers play on consoles too? However, PC will always be there go to if possible due to it being much better for streaming/recording i.e. quality, better dedicated hardware for capturing their content, interacting with their community whilst playing and so on, no doubt this is where PC shines.

Steam is a big platform but it is no surprise considering the amount of free games it has as well as titles such as CS:GO. A lot of people who have terrible hardware i.e. usually laptops will still even have it installed for the non demanding free to play games, just have a look at the hardware survey for resolution ;)

Also, isn't PUBG suppose to be full of a lot of hackers from China or something due to the amount of money to be made from the crates? Either way, the xbox one has over 3 million players now i.e. matching the PC and how long has the PC version been out???? Given the cheating situation for the PC, I won't be surprised if many PC players jump to the xbox version....

If your game is not on PC its bound to become irrelevant in a month or two after its release.

I wouldn't exactly say games like red dead redemption, last of us, god of war, HZD, uncharted are irrelevant after a month or 2..... They will go down as being some of the greatest games of all time. The only games that generally have a longer life in terms of player counts are MP games like GTA 5, BF and COD (and it's not just because they are on PC....) and even then consoles still exceed the PC version here i.e. BF 1 as of right now:

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And BF 4:

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Even BF 3 has a similar amount of players across xbox, ps 3 and PC (PC being in the lead by a few hundred)

It's a shame there aren't any stats for GTA 5 as I imagine consoles player base would be substantially higher here.

There is a potential difference in that the PC still has the overhead of the operating system and any background tasks to deal with, not to mention certain hardware configurations which may not "play nice" with the particular engine. Whereas console versions are coded for a very specific set of hardware and so it is far easier to optimise for that particular hardware rather than having to ensure compatibility across a whole spectrum of PC components from multiple manufacturers and generations

And this.

Just go and look at ryzen (especially when paired with nvidia GPUs) vs intel CPU comparisons to see how hard it is for developers to optimise for the range of PCs out there.

It is far easier being able to optimise for 1 type of system than the countless type of systems out their for PC, again just look at something like apps for android and iOS, iOS apps are often regarded as being better, performance, stability wise as well as in the UI department.

Again, you seem to be missing the value for money part of this whole thing..... £1500 VS £300-450 for "just" gaming and nothing else. If people can justify spending thousands for the constant 60/100+FPS, M+K, 144HZ gsync screen and so on then great, enjoy it :)
 
Soldato
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I always have the latest console and hardware, gaming is my number 1 interest, that will never change, PC gaming will always be number one of platform, some games are just meant to be played with k/B and mouse, controllers and FPS feel about as right as mucky bum *****.

and the titles that do suit controllers better also work just as well on pc, such as assasin's creed/gta
 
Caporegime
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Also, regarding bf 1, you just have to look at where Dice's/EA focus is now..... Take a look at the infantry/gun play, they went from gunplay mechanics that were designed for the PC crowd i.e. M+K to a completely redesigned version for controllers, the fact they even leave in auto aim, assist stuff for the PC version says it all....
 
Associate
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The other aspect of PC Gaming that concerns me is Nvidia's dominance. They've basically got a monopoly on the PC market and AMD aren't competing. Nvidia could charge whatever they want with their GPUs, it's already happening just now. When the playing field was level between ATI/Nvidia, you had 100% performance increases between new GPUs. Now, it's 25%, if you're lucky and that's your top end cards. It's completely unacceptable.

Look at the 1080ti on release, it was already a silly price before the mining situation (cheapest price for that card just now on OCUK is a laughable £829.99). For that price you could buy all 3 consoles with games.

Some gamers may not like consoles, but that market has competition with three firms keeping each other on their toes. The PC market needs more competition, badly.

Anyway, the $27 billion a year PC video games market isn't going away, but it can improve.
 
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Soldato
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A Either way, the xbox one has over 3 million players now i.e. matching the PC and how long has the PC version been out???? Given the cheating situation for the PC, I won't be surprised if many PC players jump to the xbox version....

After reading this I won't bother to respond to the rest of your post as you're clearly misinformed and don't research things before making false claims (didn't expect much more from a console gamer but thought I should give it a shot). PUBG has 3m concurrent (playing at the same time) players on PC and 3 million total players on Xbox one. PC on the other hand has 30 million total players which is 10 times as much and more than any AAA in a single console game in history. Now if you want a bigger dose of reality maybe check league of legends numbers which are around 70m active players a month which is bigger than every xbox or playstation game combined. Please if you want to argue do your research because the rest of your claims are equally misinformed and laughable.
 
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Caporegime
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The other aspect of PC Gaming that concerns me is Nvidia's dominance. They've basically got a monopoly on the PC market and AMD aren't competing. Nvidia could charge whatever they want with their GPUs, it's already happening just now. When the playing field was level between ATI/Nvidia, you had 100% performance increases between new GPUs. Now, it's 25%, if you're lucky and that's your top end cards. It's completely unacceptable.

Look at the 1080ti on release, it was already a silly price before the mining situation (cheapest price for that card just now on OCUK is a laughable £829.99). For that price you could buy all 3 consoles with games.

Some gamers may not like consoles, but at least that market has competition with three firms keeping each other on their toes. The PC market needs more competition, badly.

No wonder people are moving away from this ****** up platform now.

Yup, like I said, the likes of you and me are not alone.

No doubt the PC has its benefits (and some huge ones at that) and I can definitely see why many will and do stick with it but at the same time, I get the impression that a lot who say "consoles are ****, end of" are just in denial and don't like to see their platform doing poorly/on the decline (be that due to a true passion, almost fanboy interest in the platform or/and they have invested/wasted a lot of money and thus try to justify it with various reasons, even if those pros/reasons don't apply to themselves.....). The same way android fanboys don't like it when iphone owners slate android, nvidia owners slate amd hardware and so on.

And as you said in your first post with regards to gibbo's remarks, the prices are here to stay regardless of if the mining bubble bursts or not...

My point is, we launched 580 at £218.99 with the help of AMD.
Since then the manufacturing and production cost have rocketed, a big proportion being down to memory prices more than doubling in the last six months alone and other cost increases on components.

As such the current voucher prices are the prices if the whole channel was healthy on stock for said cards based on current cost prices.

The old prices on graphics cards are simply gone and won't be returning, simply because it is no longer possible.


After reading this I won't bother to respond to the rest of your post as you're clearly misinformed and don't research things before making false claims (didn't expect much more from a console gamer but thought I should give it a shot). PUBG has 3m concurrent (playing at the same time) players on PC and 3 million total players on Xbox one. PC on the other hand has 30 million total players which is 10 times as much and more than any AAA in a single console game in history. Now if you want a bigger dose of reality maybe check league of legends numbers which are around 70m active players a month which is bigger than every xbox or playstation game combined. Please if you want to argue do your research because the rest of your claims are equally misinformed and laughable.


After reading this I won't bother to respond to the rest of your post as you're clearly misinformed and don't research things before making false claims

In other words, "I have nothing to debunk your facts so I am just going to start doing a Trump and deny it all and instead go with childish quip remarks" :D

And this post just proves this point of mine:

I get the impression that a lot who say "consoles are ****, end of" are just in denial and don't like to see their platform doing poorly/on the decline (be that due to a true passion, almost fanboy interest in the platform or/and they have invested/wasted a lot of money and thus try to justify it with various reasons, even if those pros/reasons don't apply to themselves.....). The same way android fanboys don't like it when iphone owners slate android, nvidia owners slate amd hardware and so on.

Priceless :D

You asked for the video about dynamic resolution adaption, I provided so where is your response to that?

You said HDR can be done via sweetfx lel.......... I proved you wrong, if it was simple, then why are displays adding things like full arrary local dimming in order to meet the requirements, here teach yourself about HDR:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/hdr.htm

You then go on to say that if a game isn't on PC, it will fail and die, as I showed with 3 big FPS MP shooters, that isn't the case as the consoles are still better here or at the very least, keeping up with the PC.

Also, it is rather stupid listing titles that are only on PC... It is no surprise titles like LOL are as popular as what they are as this was made purely for PC and this type of game is where PC will always shine.

Again, go and look at the statistics out there to see where the money is for PC gaming and where the money is for consoles:

The total PC gaming market was at $34 billion, including both premium and free-to-play gaming. Overwatch generated $586 million in sales, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive was at 257.2 million, and Guild Wars 2 came in third at $91 million. Microsoft’s Minecraft was also a successful title at $89 million. In terms of free-to-play games, League of Legends generated a massive $1.7 billion in revenues, followed by Dungeon Fighter Challenge at $1.1 billion and Crossfire also at $1.1 billion.

Console game revenues were strong at $6.6 billion for 2016, up from $5.7 billion in 2015. Call of Duty: Black Ops III was in first place with $592 million in sales, FIFA 16 in second at $387 million, and Grand Theft Auto V came in third with $379 million.

Other markets of note for 2016 included esports, which generated $892 million, a significant increase that’s expected to be even stronger in 2017. Gaming video content such as YouTube Gaming and Twitch also increased significantly, at $4.4 billion in revenue, representing a 35 percent increase over 2015. Virtual reality gaming was at $2.7 billion, held down somewhat by the relatively high price of VR systems.

I will give you that about pubg, I didn't see the concurrent part, still though, remind me how long has the PC version been out and how long has the xbox version been out? And what will happen if it ever gets released for the PS 4..... I think we both know it is only a matter of time until the console surpasses "total" players in this game too, especially when the cheating situation is only getting worse and worse.... Consoles aren't cheat proof but it is a lot harder to do on console than on PC and this is one main reason why people have gone from PC to console over the last year.

Oh and console gamer? The last console I have is a xbox 360 lol..... Although I will be getting a ps 4 pro down the line as I am not wearing rose tinted glasses unlike some ;)
 
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Associate
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1440p/144hz 21:9 vs 720p/30hz, I'll choose PC the only issue I've got is cheaters.

Aye, PC has the frame rate advantage just now.

Next gen consoles will be HDMI 2.1 out the box and have features like Variable Refresh Rate (VRR), Freesync 2. Every console game could finally have consistent high frames rates (if implemented and you have a compatible TV). There goes another advantage PC once had, gone.

There is just no point buying high-end parts now for gaming, especially with the price hikes, as the return is very little.
 
Soldato
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I meant exactly that. There is no such thing as console optimization, console hardware gets you the same amount of performance as an equivalent specced pc. Pick a recent multiplat game check the tflop performance of the console, find an equivalent gpu and go check on benchmarks and you'll see what I'm talking about. Skilled exclusive developers can use fake tricks to make things look nicer than what they really are but that's it, consoles don't run on fairy dust.
You have any hard evidence to back this up? Whilst games may not be optimised per se for the console, the console's API itself is highly optimised to run on the exact hardware - look up Sony's GNM API for instance and see how closely knit to the hardware it is, just so it can squeeze every last ounce of performance out of the hardware.

If I remember correctly the PS4 has about the same GPU power as a GTX 660 or Radeon 7850 - I'm really not sure you could get the visuals you get in HZD or Unchartered out of those cards at a playable frame rate at 1080p
 
Soldato
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You have any hard evidence to back this up? Whilst games may not be optimised per se for the console, the console's API itself is highly optimised to run on the exact hardware - look up Sony's GNM API for instance and see how closely knit to the hardware it is, just so it can squeeze every last ounce of performance out of the hardware.

If I remember correctly the PS4 has about the same GPU power as a GTX 660 or Radeon 7850 - I'm really not sure you could get the visuals you get in HZD or Unchartered out of those cards at a playable frame rate at 1080p
You are throwing me a couple of exclusives so no comparison can be made. Find a good multiplat, check resolution, fps and settings that its running on ps4 (eurogamer and df provide that) and you'll see how easy it is to run on a pc gpu with the same tflops. I'm not going to do the work for you.
 
Man of Honour
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As some others have said keyboard and mouse input are one of the big reasons I stick with the PC for gaming. There is no substitute for decent framerates and low latency input.
 
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