Philips 20" 200W6CS Widescreen TFT LCD

Raymond Lin said:
well, this is interesting.

I did the test on my Acer Al1722 TN panel which is a 8ms panel for certain (I have dual monitor, just dragged it acrossed the desktop.). And the program "sync" at 16ms. Did the same on the Phillips, and it also sync at 16ms.

So either my Acer TFT is a 16ms panel (not likely), or that the program is slightly off since both screen sync at the same response time and that the Phillips is a 8ms panel since it sync in the same time as my Acer screen.
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Hmmmm.......

It nails my 2005FPW at 16ms. (Ie. correctly)
 
Just noticed that Phillips only list this monitor as being 8ms @ grey to grey, so perhaps black to white is indeed nearer 16ms??

From Phillips webby:

Response time (typical) : Eight (grey to grey) ms

I'm no expert though. :)
 
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firstly, as i've said before, don't rely too heavily on that pixel response program, it is only a very crude way of measuring the black to white ISO response of a panel. As you can see,it can be reasonably accurate. However, on modern screens it is pretty useless since it won't measure grey to grey transitions. The ISO black > white on the 8ms P-MVA panels is still ~16ms anyway, which is why you're seeing this. It's not really a good test to compare the 16ms S-IPS and 8ms P-MVA panels since both would give pretty much an identical result since the S-IPS is quoted at the ISO "response time" point, and not G2G
 
Baddass said:
firstly, as i've said before, don't rely too heavily on that pixel response program, it is only a very crude way of measuring the black to white ISO response of a panel. As you can see,it can be reasonably accurate. However, on modern screens it is pretty useless since it won't measure grey to grey transitions. The ISO black > white on the 8ms P-MVA panels is still ~16ms anyway, which is why you're seeing this. It's not really a good test to compare the 16ms S-IPS and 8ms P-MVA panels since both would give pretty much an identical result since the S-IPS is quoted at the ISO "response time" point, and not G2G
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So Phillips quoting the grey to grey at 8 is at best a little misleading if black to white may still be around 16ms?

It's almost like saying one car does 0-60 in 6 seconds and another does it in 10......but one cars 0-60 was in kilometres rather than miles? :confused:
 
Raymond Lin said:
well, this is interesting.

I did the test on my Acer Al1722 TN panel which is a 8ms panel for certain (I have dual monitor, just dragged it acrossed the desktop.). And the program "sync" at 16ms. Did the same on the Phillips, and it also sync at 16ms.

So either my Acer TFT is a 16ms panel (not likely), or that the program is slightly off since both screen sync at the same response time and that the Phillips is a 8ms panel since it sync in the same time as my Acer screen.

In actual fact, it sync best at 15ms.
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Raymond PLEASE do some fast game testing, it's the only thing missing from this thread and the gamers are waiting to hear a verdict on some fast FPS etc!
 
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Well, 10 mins of that. It took a little getting used to at first, there's just so much more to see and I had to adjust to the more screen size. After a few minutes thou everything clicked, it's fabulous. I am not a great gamer so i don't particularly look for faults like ghosting, but it doesn't seem to be any when i swing the view around and with explosion all over the place.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Well, 10 mins of that. It took a little getting used to at first, there's just so much more to see and I had to adjust to the more screen size. After a few minutes thou everything clicked, it's fabulous. I am not a great gamer so i don't particularly look for faults like ghosting, but it doesn't seem to be any when i swing the view around and with explosion all over the place.
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Raymond cheers for that buddy, when you spin round really fastin the game does it blur a lot? Have you noticed any sort of ghosting whatsoever if you look really hard?

Does anyone know any good games to test for ghosting/blurring?

This TFT is the most appealing i've seen yet, I think my next wage may go towards this. :)
 
Richdog said:
Raymond cheers for that buddy, when you spin round really fastin the game does it blur a lot? Have you noticed any sort of ghosting whatsoever if you look really hard?

Does anyone know any good games to test for ghosting/blurring?

This TFT is the most appealing i've seen yet, I think my next wage may go towards this. :)
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Best thing for him to do is stand near a wall or something with distinct texture mapping..........then swing left and right to see if the textures blur as his view moves. He needs to track one part of the wall with his eyes as he moves to see if the texture of that part of the wall blurs.

They do on my 2005fpw....but many never even notice it.

Some people (me) seem to be more "sensitive" to ghosting.

I notice it even when the cursor is moving if I track it with my eyes.
 
UOcUK Poopscoop said:
So Phillips quoting the grey to grey at 8 is at best a little misleading if black to white may still be around 16ms?

It's almost like saying one car does 0-60 in 6 seconds and another does it in 10......but one cars 0-60 was in kilometres rather than miles? :confused:
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not really. ISO response time measurements at the black > white transition have not really been improved for a while. The 8ms TN Film panels were about as fast as you could get. Then overdrive was introduced which involes over volting the liquid crystals to force them into a faster transition. Since the black > white transition is the most drastic change a pixel needs to make, it has always had the maximum voltage applied to it anyway. Therefore, they have not been able to boost black > white transitions with overdrive. However, with overdrive, maunfacturers clearly have a faster panel in grey transitions than panels without overdrive, and so they needed a good way to show this in the panel spec. G2G response times were created as a result.

The PVA and MVA market have not really been able to improve on the ISO response time for some time, and still remain at around 16ms mostly. If these were traditional non-overdriven panels, the grey to grey transitions would be even slower and these panels would not be suited to gaming at all really. With overdrive however, they have boosted grey transitions and so now quote the response time as G2G which is now the best case response time. Remember, the panel is far more likely to make intermediate transitions in practice and so boosting grey transitions shows a large improvement.

It's not deceiving to quote G2G, you just have to be wary about what is represents. G2G quoted panels are using overdrive technology and are faster than non overdriven panels. However, at the ISO points (which is what that pixel response prog is testing) you wont see any improvement. Even on modern 2ms TN Film panels, at the ISO point is still wont be any faster than around 8ms - 12ms tops
 
Cheers Baddass. :)

But "in real life" is a panel going to be doing more grey to grey transitions than black to black?

Ie. is G2G simply quoted as there *have* been improvements made there.......even if they are unnoticable in the real world.

Or.....

In normal usage is G2G more relevant than black to black?

Cheers. :)
 
G2G is probably more relevant really. The ISO measurement of black to white was only ever set up because manufacturers wanted to quote the best case response time and it was always at this point. For instance a mock up graph of a traditional panel without overdrive

latency_example.gif


note that the X axis shows the transitions ranging from Code 0 to code 255. As you get to code 255, the transitions are between black and the lighter greys, with code 255 being the ISO black > white measurement. So dark transitions are on the left and lighter transitions on the right. As you can see, traditional panels only really got anywhere near their quoted response time at the code 255 ISO point.

latency_vp191b.jpg


The Viewsonic VP191B compared with a traditional 8ms non overdrive panel (used in the BenQ FP71e+ here). As you can see, the ISO point of the VP191B is still about 15ms, and this is using a P-MVA panel rated at 8ms. If the Philips 200W6CS does use the lerger 8ms P-MVA panel from AUO like we suspect, then you can expect the response time graph to be of similar shape to the graph for the 19" version in the VP191B. The grey transitions are clearly a lot faster than traditional style panels, and it is only in some grey transitions that it reaches anywhere near its new quoted G2G response time. Manufacurers want to show off their new overdrive and it does have an impact in real terms as well as on paper in most cases too. Rather than stick with traditional measurements of response time they've moved to G2G as we discussed above. It is far more common for a panel to have to change between shades of grey and different light intensities than it is for it to change a full rotation between black and white and so G2G response times are very important.

Remember though, these graphs are useful but dont always give an indication of true responsiveness in practice, only what is recorded by sophisticated equipment. TN Film panels feel more responsive generally than VA varient panels, and some overdrive might improve things on paper, but not in practice. Response time is a good indication of panel speed, but i would not trust it implicitly

hth
 
just move the cursor left to right across a coloured background. its really easy to notice ghosting...
atleast it is on my latop.
prolly be more accurate if you turn of cursor trails too.
 
I am thinking about getting this monitor, can anyone who has this monitor please tell me if the monitor has an option to display 1280x1024 and 1024x768 resolutions with the correct aspect ratios of 4:3 with black borders (i.e not stretching the picture to fill the screen).

I know that the monitor has a 'fill with aspect ratio' option in the menu system, but I am not sure what that setting does.

Thanks in advance
 
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