plan for collapse of Thames Water

Yes the system is designed for sewage to be spilled but they are doing it even when it’s dry.
they and others have always spilled sewage when its dry, the U.K. used to be world renown for having beaches that were full of turds.

There is where the moving goal posts have come in, this now monitored and recorded where as before it wasn’t.

Our rivers and beaches generally are in a lot better condition than decades gone by. So while spills still happen and we have much better monitoring in place, the only way to square that circle is less of it is spilled than compared to decades done by.
 
Why do they deserve bankruptcy?
They were trying to do a job and got ripped off by their masters, to whom they were only sold because the government wasn't funding them. What good is punishing them going to achieve?

Because that's the point of privatisation - the risk shifts to the private sector and their investors, if it doesn't work out it's their loss/their risk to bear.

If they're going to be bailed out by the government anyway then that defeats the whole point - they'd then had a free roll at running a water company... heads they win and tails the government picks up the tab anyway.

So screw them, the investors should lose their money on this if the company isn't viable and someone else can step up.
 
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Because that's the point of privatisation - the risk shifts to the private sector and their investors, if it doesn't work out it's their loss/their risk to bear.

If they're going to be bailed out by the government anyway then that defeats the whole point - they'd then had a free roll at running a water company... heads they win and tails the government picks up the tab anyway.

So screw them, the investors should lose their money on this if the company isn't viable and someone else can step up.
The investors will be wiped out. The only people who won't be are those with bonds backed by the assets. No idea why people think equity holders will be bailed out.
 
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They have too much debt now to function under the existing framework. They cant pay down the debt and invest in the infrastructure. Yes the system is designed for sewage to be spilled but they are doing it even when its dry.
It's not just surface water causing this. Sewers run all the time, so when they block they can surcharge and outfall even in dry weather.
You could try asking people to stop taking showers and flushing their toilets, I suppose.......

Because that's the point of privatisation - the risk shifts to the private sector and their investors, if it doesn't work out it's their loss/their risk to bear.
The investors sure, not that such a thing would happen, but why do the water companies deserve bankruptcy?
That's what Ed was specifically moaning about.
 
I think @ttaskmaster's view on this is quite personally influenced and I get why - 'Thames Water' as such, have arguably just been attempting to do what they're tasked with doing by DWI/EA/OFWAT with the funds they've got and it wasn't 'their fault' that Macquarie tore the backside out of them, left barely any money to actually deliver the work needed before dumping and running with a ticking time bomb of a debt structure left in their wake.

For people attached to 'Thames Water' who have just been trying to do their job it probably feels a little unfair that their jobs/work/livelihood etc. might be at risk in some fashion because the company has to fold as a result of ownership practices from 10-15 years ago.

This is obviously no different to any other company going bust really, where the employees are effectively innocent victims of high level corporate greed but from the perspective that @ttaskmaster either works for Thames or in the supply chain, I get why the attitude of "**** 'em, let them all go under" probably stings a bit on a more personal level.
 
I think @ttaskmaster's view on this is quite personally influenced and I get why - 'Thames Water' as such, have arguably just been attempting to do what they're tasked with doing by DWI/EA/OFWAT with the funds they've got and it wasn't 'their fault' that Macquarie tore the backside out of them, left barely any money to actually deliver the work needed before dumping and running with a ticking time bomb of a debt structure left in their wake.

For people attached to 'Thames Water' who have just been trying to do their job it probably feels a little unfair that their jobs/work/livelihood etc. might be at risk in some fashion because the company has to fold as a result of ownership practices from 10-15 years ago.

This is obviously no different to any other company going bust really, where the employees are effectively innocent victims of high level corporate greed but from the perspective that @ttaskmaster either works for Thames or in the supply chain, I get why the attitude of "**** 'em, let them all go under" probably stings a bit on a more personal level.
I get that, I truly do. I can almost sympathise with that view if you accept in isolation Thames had done all it could given all the constraints and influences placed upon them. Ultimately, the parent company set fire to the house and burnt it down and it is, I'm afraid, irrelevant whether the child company had a hand with lighting that tinder or not. That's capitalism for you. No good, redirecting that ire towards poor regulation or poor government interventions', the responsibility for poor business is squarely on the owners, past, present and whoever.
 
I get that, I truly do. I can almost sympathise with that view if you accept in isolation Thames had done all it could given all the constraints and influences placed upon them. Ultimately, the parent company set fire to the house and burnt it down and it is, I'm afraid, irrelevant whether the child company had a hand with lighting that tinder or not. That's capitalism for you. No good, redirecting that ire towards poor regulation or poor government interventions', the responsibility for poor business is squarely on the owners, past, present and whoever.

The bit that's galling and should be for everyone, is that whilst every man and his dog can see who caused the problem and how, they're pretty much liable to deal with none of the fallout, they're home and dry. They'll receive no penalty or loss of business. There is no 'responsibility' on the past owners in reality.

Not only that, they've subsequently been able to take a majority ownership in another water company and i'm sure everyone will be thoroughly surprised when that one collapses under the weight of it's own debt 5 years after they bail out of that too.

The message is loud and clear - abuse our infrastructure as much as you want, just make sure you sell up before anyone realises how much you've abused it and you'll have nothing to worry about, the people and businesses you leave behind will have to pick up the pieces.
 
The bit that's galling and should be for everyone, is that whilst every man and his dog can see who caused the problem and how, they're pretty much liable to deal with none of the fallout, they're home and dry. They'll receive no penalty or loss of business. There is no 'responsibility' on the past owners in reality.

Not only that, they've subsequently been able to take a majority ownership in another water company and i'm sure everyone will be thoroughly surprised when that one collapses under the weight of it's own debt 5 years after they bail out of that too.

The message is loud and clear - abuse our infrastructure as much as you want, just make sure you sell up before anyone realises how much you've abused it and you'll have nothing to worry about, the people and businesses you leave behind will have to pick up the pieces.
Completely agree. There needs to be robust regulation, legislation, licensing and governance; that's just as much on private companies as it is on nation-state governments.

Good luck waiting on that to happen (:
 
What do they deserve then? They're private companies with obfuscated parent entities with shareholders / investors that bled them dry. Realistically what should happen to a private company with a failed business model?
What does one usually do when one party is (as good as) innocent and gets ****** to hell and back by another party, the latter of whom then cuts and runs to escape punishment?

Separation from the parent entities and some kind of reset (unless you can get that money back), so they can get back to doing their jobs would be my guess.
For most truly private companies bankruptcy would be just a sad event, but water companies are responsible for public assets and life-essential services. They (supposedly) are not allowed to fail and their parent companies should not have been allowed to go this far.

Unless you can find a new set of owners, the government now has little option but to step in if they want things to pick up any time soon.

Are they able to continue running and pay their debts?
This has yet to be seen.
It's currently being argued that it's perfectly possible, but it will take a long time and depends upon things like the bill increases.

I think @ttaskmaster's view on this is quite personally influenced and I get why - 'Thames Water' as such, have arguably just been attempting to do what they're tasked with doing by DWI/EA/OFWAT with the funds they've got and it wasn't 'their fault' that Macquarie tore the backside out of them, left barely any money to actually deliver the work needed before dumping and running with a ticking time bomb of a debt structure left in their wake.
Even if it weren't personal to me, I think most people would agree that's rather unfair to put the blame for that on TW. It's a bit like blaming a nurse for something caused by an external NHS fund management company... except nurses are usually prettier.

For people attached to 'Thames Water' who have just been trying to do their job it probably feels a little unfair that their jobs/work/livelihood etc. might be at risk in some fashion because the company has to fold as a result of ownership practices from 10-15 years ago.
Most people in this industry specialise in something and it's a lifelong career as a result. There just aren't many other places where the skills and knowledge are especially transferrable, even in vaguely similar industries like oil pipelines... otherwise we'd probably have been rats off a sinking ship.

To some extent even employment security isn't a concern, as the only way a renationalised industry would keep functioning is if they employ us, because we're the only ones who have the real-world know-how, experience and the relationships to actually run things.
For my part, I'm effectively now the only person available to TW with certain certificates of competence, either internally or among their approved contractors. There are a couple of others, but they're either semi-retired or work as self-employed consultants and are very expensive (I understand commuting from Fuerta Ventura is quite costly).

This is obviously no different to any other company going bust really, where the employees are effectively innocent victims of high level corporate greed but from the perspective that @ttaskmaster either works for Thames or in the supply chain, I get why the attitude of "**** 'em, let them all go under" probably stings a bit on a more personal level.
It's partly that the collapse of a major water company also destroys all their contractors.
We all specialise in this industry alone, with many of our employees moving between each other and the water companies themselves. We employ a number of ex-TW staff, as they have the knowledge of the networks, processes and the operational procedures. Thames also hire from us, for the same kinds of expertise. We train under TW, and also train them in certain things. The working relationships are so close that some of us are 'embedded consultants', meaning we work at TW sites and offices, report to their managers or manage their staff, get all their internal comms, go to their Christmas parties and are essentially TW employees in all matters save for an actual TW contract.
It's quite incestuous, in some respects.....!

But if TW are allowed to go under, they'll take a lot more than just themselves down with them, and you'll lose a lot of resources essential to even a nationalised, government run service.
The disruption and loss will be much higher than most people realise.
 
This has yet to be seen.
It's currently being argued that it's perfectly possible, but it will take a long time and depends upon things like the bill increases.

Well yes, they run a monopoly on an essential service so in theory even larger amounts of mismanagement could be made up for with bill increases, you could double water bills and people would still want a water supply. But that's why it's tightly regulated, water companies don't get to just charge whatever they want precisely because they operate a monopoly over an essential service and if a water company finds it can no longer feasibly operate then it deserves to fail, investors lose their equity and someone else can take over.
 
But that's why it's supposed to be tightly regulated
FTFY...

if a water company finds it can no longer feasibly operate then it deserves to fail, investors lose their equity and someone else can take over.
So if I come along and rob you or bully you out of your hard-earned cash, and the Police do nothing to stop me, you deserve to lose your house?

If someone else takes over, unless it's the government nationalising it, the water company has not failed.
Due to the nature of the service provided, failure in this instance means outright, not just a change of ownership or management. It's not like a regular business.
 
So if I come along and rob you or bully you out of your hard-earned cash, and the Police do nothing to stop me, you deserve to lose your house?

If someone else takes over, unless it's the government nationalising it, the water company has not failed.
Due to the nature of the service provided, failure in this instance means outright, not just a change of ownership or management. It's not like a regular business.

It's not clear what you're trying to argue there re: your unclear attempt at an analogy re: a robbery.

If the after company is no longer solvent and the equity loses it's value then yes it has failed, that isn't dependent on the government nationalising it (tough that is an option too).
 
I am sure if TW "goes under" water* it will be resolved via a pre-pack.
New entity takes the staff, assets and debts equal to assets at most.
Any debts above value of assets are gone.
Creditors would get x% of their cash, government filling in the rest. Maybe.

IE starts effectively at zero.

*sorry couldn't resist.

Unfortunately this is just another example of bad privatisation with a regulator with no teeth and no requirement to stop an in effect monopoly supplier being able to abuse its position.
As someone else said on there forums elsewhere, why cant we have UK regulators that are XXL bullies ;)
 
It's not clear what you're trying to argue there re: your unclear attempt at an analogy re: a robbery.
Yes, that happens re: when you don't try hard enough re: don't read the thread...

If the after company is no longer solvent and the equity loses it's value then yes it has failed, that isn't dependent on the government nationalising it (tough that is an option too).
The equity has value, as those assets will remain even if you remove the company itself. This is why they remain public assets despite being privately owned, why they can't be sold off against the debt, and why Special Administration is the most likely option, because the water undertaker is not allowed to fail.

As someone else said on there forums elsewhere, why cant we have UK regulators that are XXL bullies ;)
Because they'd be government/publicly owned, and such things have a history of responding badly to bad/clueless/incompetent ownership... :D
 
The equity has value, as those assets will remain even if you remove the company itself. This is why they remain public assets despite being privately owned, why they can't be sold off against the debt, and why Special Administration is the most likely option, because the water undertaker is not allowed to fail.

Again this is an unclear reply, you're conflating equity and company assets/property. The value of the equity can go to zero.
 
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Again this is an unclear reply, you're conflating equity and company assets/property. The value of the equity can go to zero.
Equity is basically the value of assets sold minus money owed. Since the assets can't actually be sold off, as they're public assets and must remain with the service undertaker, they retain their value.
If they could be sold off, you'd have had no water for at least the past decade.
 
I dont think ttaskmaster analogy is too far from the truth (you were robbed, why should you lose your house) .

At the end of the day its a failure of regulation. OFWAT as a toothless or narcolepsy suffering regulator letting water companies run roughshod over the law and not advocating for thhe customer enough.

I also think its a failure of financial regulation and maybe we should look at limiting the amount of money business can borrow against assests to try and prevent this kind of finacial extraction in the future.
 
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