Please turn off the TV

krooton said:
Whereas I consider having kids so that someone can look after you in your old age is just as selfish as being a 'good person' due to being scared of hell or wanting to get in to heaven.
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This is what I mean you think of it as problem to yourself helping your elderly family in their final years. It wouldn't even cross my mind.

I agree Dementia is a tough one and is where specialist care would be needed but I am more referring to people who expect to just dump their parents in care home when their marbles are all completely there when in reality they just need a bit of help with things.
 
Devilman said:
I find it sad that people who have gained 20+ years life expectancy and a greatly increased risk of debilitating illnesses like Dementia think it's still acceptable to burden their children with their care, which could last 20+ years, when they themselves (and practically ever generation before them) are very unlikely to have EVER had to do anything close to that level of care for their parents.

Yes your parents brought you into the world... But who for?

You prefer to lumber people who are not trained or skilled to deal with the often complex and co-morbid health problems with the responsibility, rather than have people who are actually trained for the job?

Do you also do your own surgery? Your own Plumbing? Your own Electrics? Or do you bring in people who are trained to deal with it?

You talk of selfishness but fail to see the elephant in the room.. A pair of adults decided to bring a new life into the world for THEMSELVES, because THEY wanted a child...


*edit* Also.. I was talking specifically and in reference to the blatant financial blackmail that was "they will look after me if they want any inheritance"
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You are going to an extreme with Dementia and yes it does require specialist care but that is a unique set of circumstances. I was more thinking of a normal scenario where parents are old but still have their marbles but are not as mobile as they used to be which is vast majority of elderly. Sticking them in a care home is selfish and I would never do it. My Grandad lived to 93 and was independent till 93. It was only the last 6 months that he needed our care due to cancer. Yes it was tough but I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Also just to answer your question I do not do my own surgery (will most likely have to the way the NHS is going) but have re-plummed my bathroom and done quite a lot of my own electrics too.
 
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I've tried to respond to this thread a few times but it gets really deep really quickly. I'll summarise in that this thread saddens me, and without a shred of patronising intent I advise anyone of child bearing age that is ambivalent or has convinced themselves that it's not economically viable to sit down and have a long, hard think about what you want your life to be like when you're older. You will have a very, very long time to think about it then, and it will be too late. I don't want to get in to a discussion, I just feel the need to say it.
 
I was told by a gyne consultant that if I did have children, I would have health issues which affects both me and the baby.

Besides, I’m not a maternal person.

Plus fearing for the future for children born now.

Yet benefit parents have children just to get more money and a bigger council/housing association property. These are the children we don’t need more of.
 
Zefan said:
I've tried to respond to this thread a few times but it gets really deep really quickly. I'll summarise in that this thread saddens me, and without a shred of patronising intent I advise anyone of child bearing age that is ambivalent or has convinced themselves that it's not economically viable to sit down and have a long, hard think about what you want your life to be like when you're older. You will have a very, very long time to think about it then, and it will be too late. I don't want to get in to a discussion, I just feel the need to say it.
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So, you get to say your opinion then close down any form of discussion/challenge about it?... That's fair.
 
Richie said:
So, you get to say your opinion then close down any form of discussion/challenge about it?... That's fair.
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Interesting way to read it. Of course that isn't what I'm saying, I just personally don't want to get in to a debate about it. You guys can discuss all you want :p
 
Zefan said:
Interesting way to read it. Of course that isn't what I'm saying, I just personally don't want to get in to a debate about it. You guys can discuss all you want :p
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Would be good to hear your views!

Its just so expensive now, many people recently on to housing market, the prime age to have kids, are looking at massive bill shocks, negative equity etc etc.

They are probably already later than their parents to this stage.

You know future price increases, know how expensive child care is. If you're anywhere near stretched now it's financially crazy to have a kid.


I expect this downturn will really dent the fertility rate in Europe
 
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413x said:
Would be good to hear your views!
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I find these issues get really personal really quickly, almost impossible to avoid appearing to judge someone's life decisions even if it's not your intention. I can understand why this happens and I can't think of a great way around it other than to not partake. I suppose gentle expansions can't hurt, will see if I can fashion something.
 
adam cool dude said:
You are going to an extreme with Dementia and yes it does require specialist care but that is a unique set of circumstances. I was more thinking of a normal scenario where parents are old but still have their marbles but are not as mobile as they used to be which is vast majority of elderly. Sticking them in a care home is selfish and I would never do it. My Grandad lived to 93 and was independent till 93. It was only the last 6 months that he needed our care due to cancer. Yes it was tough but I wouldn't have had it any other way.

Also just to answer your question I do not do my own surgery (will most likely have to the way the NHS is going) but have re-plummed my bathroom and done quite a lot of my own electrics too.
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Dementia is not REMOTELY an extreme, it is becoming more and more common as people live longer and their body (and brain) fails them.

The fact you think it IS extreme is part of the problem. you won't recognize a significant issue that affects a lot of people as they get into their 70's and 80's as evidenced by my own personal experience with my father. However you just try to "handwave" it away with a single story of how your grandad lived until 93.

Good on him, well done, but he was one of the LUCKY ones and you think it's acceptable to judge people for having to have their parents whom they have cared for, for years be moved into a care home to meet their needs

Your attitude is frankly disgusting, If you had even bothered to read my reply earlier detailing the decline my father has gone through you might have a scrap of compassion, instead you sit there trying to act superior and judge others when they can no longer cope with looking after a relative with failing health.

So, Why wont you do your own surgery? You seem so certain that you alone are capable of dealing with complex issues that require specialist help, why are you so unwilling to go the whole hog?

Next time, Try not to be such a Judgemental ****.
 
cheesyboy said:
Britain, as a country, ******* hates kids. Just an awful attitude towards young people. You don't see it elsewhere.
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This is so true, and IME does seem to be a particular thing about the UK. I actuslly did an inadvertent social experiment along these lines when I was waiting around in one of those megamart compexes in France holding my then 2 month old. The amount of people who smiled, waved and stopped, said hello, were visibly cheered up by seeing some random guy holding a 2 month old near some shops was crazy.
 
Tom_ed1987 said:
This is so true, and IME does seem to be a particular thing about the UK. I actuslly did an inadvertent social experiment along these lines when I was waiting around in one of those megamart compexes in France holding my then 2 month old. The amount of people who smiled, waved and stopped, said hello, were visibly cheered up by seeing some random guy holding a 2 month old near some shops was crazy.
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Indifference to another person's child is not the same as hating though.

Also, I wonder if there is sometimes a "fear" of stopping to wave, smile or say hello to children in the UK especially if you're a single guy (as in out and about by themselves).
 
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I think expecting your children to look after you in old age just isn't that realistic anymore.

People are having children later and it takes far longer to gain financial stability (which is likely to get worse). At the point you need care your now adult child could well be at the period where they are raising young children and just won't have the time to take on looking after you. Even cultures where traditionally the mother stays at home are changing to the realities of rising living costs. Plus you have no guarantee what your relationship with your child will be like at that point.

Personally I'd rather the option to opt out dignitas style rather than dumping my poor health on my children. Years of care can end up making people wish you would just die so they can live their lives again, that's no way to be remembered.
 
Zefan said:
I've tried to respond to this thread a few times but it gets really deep really quickly. I'll summarise in that this thread saddens me, and without a shred of patronising intent I advise anyone of child bearing age that is ambivalent or has convinced themselves that it's not economically viable to sit down and have a long, hard think about what you want your life to be like when you're older. You will have a very, very long time to think about it then, and it will be too late. I don't want to get in to a discussion, I just feel the need to say it.
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It's not like I haven't done this. But the pros/cons list is just an empty pros column. Quite often hear people with kids say it's the best thing they ever did, but I'm totally failing to understand the why.
 
adam cool dude said:
This is what I mean you think of it as problem to yourself helping your elderly family in their final years. It wouldn't even cross my mind.

I agree Dementia is a tough one and is where specialist care would be needed but I am more referring to people who expect to just dump their parents in care home when their marbles are all completely there when in reality they just need a bit of help with things.
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No, you have miss-interpreted my post.

I have been asked a variation of the same question multiple times when telling people I will not be having kids.

"But who is going to look after you when you are older?"

To me, bringing life in to this world, so that it can look after you when you are older, is a somewhat selfish angle. I know it isn't the sole reason for many parents, but the fact that is used to try and change my mind about having kids screams volumes.

Also, all that money that goes in to raising a child, that instead can go in to my pension and future savings, to cover my care costs/euthanasia/consciousness upload/whatever the options will be in 30 years.
 
throwaway4372 said:
It's not like I haven't done this. But the pros/cons list is just an empty pros column. Quite often hear people with kids say it's the best thing they ever did, but I'm totally failing to understand the why.
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The problem is that those same people assume it will the same for everyone else.

No parents who regret having children, will be upfront about it, as they would be massacred by people. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of parents out there who wish they hadn't (and that doesn't mean they don't love their children either).
 
cheesyboy said:
Looking forward to all the big-brains, who've spent years demonising people for having too many kids, pivot to demonising them for having too few.

If you want people to have kids, make it affordable, make it welcoming, offer supportive structures, and recognise it as a worthy pursuit.
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You are mssing the dog-whistle, even though it's the Torygraph. As always when someone says this, what they mean is: we want the white middle-classes to have more children. It's just thinly disguised Great Displacement Theory nonsense, with a topping of anti-poor rhetoric. The world needs fewer people, not more. The issue of an aging population won't be fixed like this, just delayed a few years.
 
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