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Police dealing with incident on London Bridge amid reports of shots fired

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by terley, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 6,345

    What's the evidence you base an assertion like this on?

    Can you show it's anything more substantial than an unquestioning acceptance of something a Tory MP has posted on twitter?
     
  2. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,040

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    Good post. In response to those saying he's not a hero, he's a murderer, no, he's both.
     
  3. mmj_uk

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 26, 2003

    Posts: 24,057

    I think the problem is this idea that has become pervasive in media/society that people are to be judged wholly on something negative they've said or done 10 years ago, if he murdered someone in the past then of course his actions in that instance were to some people unforgivable and it's only right they would still hate him but at the same time his actions yesterday probably saved lives so to some people he is equally a hero. Nobody can be perfect at all times and you can't be liked by everyone, stop judging peoples' entire characters over single past incidents or based on what someone else has told you (social media style herd mentality) and take them as they present themselves to you on a personal level.
     
  4. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,869

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Once someone has served their time that is meant to be it to some extent, if they're forever persecuted they'll most likely return to crime, difficult one if someone's past is forever taken into account and it prevents them from earning an honest income.
     
  5. terley

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2010

    Posts: 2,869

    IIRC the term would have been 12 years under current law.
    https://www.ft.com/content/9710702a-31cf-11e8-ac48-10c6fdc22f03



    And sentances in the UK aren't retroactive, you can't be sent to prison for 4 years only for law changes to mean that same crime would get you 14 years. (for example)
     
  6. terley

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2010

    Posts: 2,869

    This 2bh

    A lot of people ive spoken to are saying "he should be set free, he's a hero!"

    You can still be a hero yet be required to serve your time... Freeing the man devalues the life of the woman he killed.
     
  7. Zatoichi.uK

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 13, 2005

    Posts: 2,816

    It shouldn't be surprising that a convicted murdered would involve himself in a violent situation. He probably lacks self preservation instincts to some extent.
     
  8. FortuitousFluke

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,040

    Location: Cambridgeshire

    I agree. He should serve his time for the crime he committed but imho it's okay to praise him for helping to save lives.

    Idle speculation, his crime was committed 15 years ago, maybe he has been rehabilitated, maybe he's still the same man and that led to his actions. We don't know. All we do know is that, inspite of and without downplaying his crime, his actions yesterday were courageous and he undoubtedly helped to save lives. In my view he acted like a hero and he deserves praise, and he also brutally murdered a girl and deserves to serve the relevant sentence.
     
  9. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 6,345

    Can't see it - pay-walled.
     
  10. terley

    Mobster

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  11. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 12,156

    ''Usman Khan was given a sentence known as "imprisonment for public protection" (IPP) in February 2012 for his part in a terror plot, meaning he could not be released without the approval of the Parole Board.

    First introduced by New Labour, IPPs had become controversial amid concerns they were being misused and keeping lower level offenders locked up indefinitely.


    In September 2012, the European Court of Human Rights ruled they were "arbitrary and unlawful".

    Three months later, IPPs were abolished by the Conservative-led coalition government and replaced with new beefed up fixed-term sentences...''
    https://news.sky.com/story/london-b...ine-how-atrocity-influences-election-11874704
     
  12. terley

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2010

    Posts: 2,869

    Im not saying conservative pre-2019 would've done any better, i'm just stating the fact that under new legislation this wouldn't have happened.

    "IPPs were abolished by the Conservative-led coalition government and replaced with new beefed up fixed-term sentences."

    Do you have any more information on that? its a big chance with very little description
     
  13. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 12,156

    No, only what is said in the link. Nobody is coming out of this one smelling of roses. It's disgusting that this has even become just another election issue but this seems to be the way things are currently.

    And more, this time from the BBC:

    Former chief crown prosecutor Nazir Afzal said he repeatedly warned Mr Johnson of the risk posed by convicted terrorists being released from prison while still radicalised.

    Mr Afzal said: "He asked me what keeps me awake at night and I told him it was this issue.

    "When he wanted to know what to do about it, I told him it was more resources for one-to-one de-radicalisation.

    "Back then, he hadn't found the 'money tree' so he frustratingly said there was no money."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50615928
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  14. mmj_uk

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 26, 2003

    Posts: 24,057

    Indeed, I can understand situations such as where parents don't want convicted paedophiles being left alone around their children but I don't think people should be hated for all eternity (and by everyone) based upon singular mistakes, you have to give them a chance to make amends. I tend to treat people as they treat me, anything bad they've done in the past is between them and the justice/rehabilitation system. Rehabilitation will never have a 100% success rate though unfortunately, so what do we just throw everyone in jail until the day they die?
     
  15. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 1, 2014

    Posts: 10,685

    Location: Aberdeen

    QFT. Part of the purpose of prison is to give people the opportunity to reform.
     
  16. terley

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2010

    Posts: 2,869

    The issue is, when you murder somone the sentence isn't just to remove a danger from society.. Its recompense for the life taken.

    Of all crimes murder is different, you may be able to rehabilitate a murderer away from commiting a similar act in future, but the life taken is something that cannot be undone.

    No amount off rehabilitation will ever restore the damage caused by murder.
     
  17. Em3bbs

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 26, 2011

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    Location: City of London

    Prison isn't supposed to be about getting revenge, that's nonsense.
     
  18. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 34,992

    Location: Co Durham

    Give it a rst mate, I think the thread is fed up over you arguing over a minor point you got wrong. MOVE ON!
     
  19. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 47,094

    That’s you not me the petty (and flawed) point was brought up by you and you’re continually quoting me over it? Why carry on?
     
  20. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 47,094

    While it’s sad that his son died it’s perfectly legitimate to point out that only ultimately getting 8 years for a terror plot was too short a sentence to serve especially when the trial judge originally went for an indeterminant sentence. It’s hardly draconian to want terrorists found guilty of plotting terror attacks like that (with the intent of causing significant loss of lives) to serve more than 8 years.
     
  21. MeEsH BaKkA

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 12, 2002

    Posts: 2,947

    You spelt retribution wrong.