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Police dealing with incident on London Bridge amid reports of shots fired

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by terley, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. terley

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2010

    Posts: 2,869

    Revenge:
    "the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands."

    Some may argue that imprisonment is harming somone, i'd argue that it only becomes that once you put people in solitary confinement and don't give them their basic human needs.

    I have no issue in a society that if you murder somone by slicing their throat open with a knife, you are required to spend the rest of your mortal life locked away from society, and even if you have truly atoned for your sins and are no longer a threat to society then you can earn more privledges and move towards a prison facility that allows more freedoms. But you should serve your time as a punishment for taking that life.
     
  2. MeEsH BaKkA

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 12, 2002

    Posts: 2,947

    Our justice system is how it is for a reason, it’s not perfect by any means but balances public saftey with kinds of sentence. How do you think the situation of witnesses or victims of crime may pan out differently if the person committing the crime knows if they get caught their life is over rather than a potentially long time locked up but with a possible future?
     
  3. Jean-F

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Apr 14, 2017

    Posts: 1,808

    Location: London

    Your congrats are noted, and gratefully received, for she is indeed an exceptionally lovely human, who was saddened by the injuries and loss of life that day on London Bridge.
    It’s entirely understandable that you took the stance that you did on reading my post, but that was totally my fault for the way that I worded it.
    It looked like I was saying that she intimated, “How inconsiderate can you be, getting stabbed to death, and making it awkward for me to get home”, when what she was actually commenting on, was the fact that the roads on the south side of London Bridge must have been completely gridlocked that day.
    So if you feel like venting your spleen, vent it on me, she did nothing wrong, other than have me put a wrong slant on the words that she did say.
     
  4. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 47,056

    What are you actually trying to argue for here? If they're actively plotting some Mumbai style atrocity then I don't think it matters - they're pretty far gone.

    If you're talking about say some hypothetical bank robber potentially getting locked up for life without parole whether or not he kills the hostages etc.. then sure.

    In this case though it was a terrorist who only got 8 years in jail, given what he was plotting that seems way to short.

    It isn't just terrorists either - I'd say the same re: people who attempt to kill - it is fairly frequent that you hear some violent criminal had killed or attempted to kill someone in the past too - for example the thug who knifed the father on a train not so long ago following a verbal argument... I really think there needs to be a big overhaul of what we can do with regards to these people - I do think some of them need to be locked up for increasingly longer periods of time, especially when there are repeated incidents or violent behaviour that threatens public safety.

    On the flip side though I'd like to see much less use of prisons for petty crimes etc.. it seems absolutely ridiculous that women are being locked up over the TV licence etc... that can just as easily be addressed by changing the way in which the state collects fines etc.. docking benefits etc..
     
  5. stockhausen

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2006

    Posts: 11,079

    No message.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  6. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 47,056

    Well it isn’t a lie. Comrade Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser.
     
  7. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 7,284

    You are a great poster :)


    I suspect the time spent shouldn't be the main concern, more what actions were taken to rehabilitate or de-brainwash, and what reviews were done before release.
     
  8. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 47,056

    I think both are a concern. Though rehabilitation is rather hit and miss in general let alone the fact we’re talking about a fanatic here who wanted to plan a Mumbai style attack.

    I think keeping someone like that locked up is more of a priority - why risk it when it gets that extreme?
     
  9. StriderX

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 25,349

    His solicitor claims he wanted help and was given none, because there was no money for it, how do you square that?

    Rehab only works if you... actually engage with them, just expecting them to change because of years of looking at concrete and eating **** food would be humourous if it wasn't serious.
     
  10. MeEsH BaKkA

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 12, 2002

    Posts: 2,947

    That’s the exact scenario I meant, I was drunkenly trying argue against terleys opinion that prison is for punishment and retribution, and draconian sentences could have an unintended effect.

    However, anyone caught planning or carrying out a terror attack should be locked in a small cell with absolutely no human contact what so ever with nothing other than basic food or water provided for the rest of their life with every effort taken to prolong their situation regardless of their mental state.
     
  11. Efour

    Caporegime

    Joined: Sep 8, 2005

    Posts: 25,772

    Location: Norrbotten, Sweden.

    How do you need money to stop believing in jihad?
    Some kind of deal for free housing and expenses for promising to be a good non murdering citizen?
    Witness relocation so he can denounce his religious idiocy?
    I'm sorry but it's just a bs smokescreen after the fact. The guy was a mentally ill brainwashed moron and for once 5.56mm bullets were a good choice, shame they didn't give him some in 2012.
     
  12. StriderX

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 25,349

    Money for a program of deradicalisation, i'm not saying it would work, but you don't really know if you don't try, and by the looks of things they didn't bother with this person for financial reasons.

    What has the last the couple of decades really proven other than 'just killing them' isn't really a solution? Unless of course you wish to advocate for genocide?
     
  13. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 47,056

    Indeed - some solicitor trying to deflect a bit... "if only they'd helped my client more..." - the fundamental thing is that he only got 8 years in jail, he should still have been in jail now for an indeterminate length of time. The rehabilitation is separate to that - yes it would be nice to have but it really ought to have been more related to him potentially being released as someone in his late 60s at best.
     
  14. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 6,121

    We arent talking about addiction to substances, if you cant decide on your own that murdering people in the name of a work of fiction is bad, you should never be a part of society.

    I bet he did ask for help at his trial (for a lower sentence) and when up for parole (to get released). If you're happy to have mentally unhinged people walking around free then that's great, in reality they should never see the light of day again.
     
  15. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,850

    Location: West Sussex, England

    QFT?

    In most cases I agree although I'm not sure how possible that is for certain crimes.

    Some crimes such as terrorism shouldn't be subject to auto parole. I think the worst crimes should actually carry the death sentence rather than taking the risk and cost of lengthy sentences / reform interventions.
     
  16. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,850

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Agreed.

    Only some crimes should have a rehabilitation route, other more extreme cases should have the death penalty with a solitary death row spell to combine the encarserating punishment with the end solution.
     
  17. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 1, 2014

    Posts: 10,662

    Location: Aberdeen

    Quoted for truth.

    I disagree for several reasons. Firstly, people make mistakes and miscarriages of justice do occur. Secondly, it improves police safety: it means that the alleged criminal knows he can surrender safely to the police rather than take as many of them with him as possible.
     
  18. wesimmo

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 19, 2012

    Posts: 3,907

    I'm English and share few, if any, views and values with you. I think you're an abhorrent person and would be absolutely distraught if my daughter ended up voicing the views that you do.
     
  19. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 6,121

    What if their objective is to take as many down with them as possible (as we have seen recently)?
     
  20. Quartz

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 1, 2014

    Posts: 10,662

    Location: Aberdeen

    I would hope that the police would recognise the situation and act accordingly.