Caporegime
A brown shirt?
Police fired at in Champs Eleysee
- Thread starter Hades
- Start date
Oh a Hitler reference, excellent attempt. You do know those kind of digs at me along with racist, bigot etc etc are like water off a ducks back, sticks and stones, grow up you child.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hasuit-Fas...qid=1492812400&sr=1-5&nodeID=1730998031&psd=1
There you go. It'll suit you nicely.
Yes 
Detaining and imprisoning a lot of people put on a relatively arbitrary list without trial, hard evidence or proper independent judicial oversight would very much suit that style garment.
Well I thought I'd try a buzzword out for a change. You inspired me Arazi. I'll have to remember to quote that post next time you use your buzzwords.
Detaining and imprisoning a lot of people put on a relatively arbitrary list without trial, hard evidence or proper independent judicial oversight would very much suit that style garment.
Well I thought I'd try a buzzword out for a change. You inspired me Arazi.
I'll have to remember to quote that post next time you use your buzzwords.
Caporegime
I though you were going for a Mussolini reference with a different shirt colour.
Soldato
See what happens in 10-20 years time when you've got all these people who dont value the western way of life, they all have more kids than Europeans do and all of a sudden you've got people voting for Islamic values over European ones. Not to mention bombs going off every friday outside another factions mosque because their version of the space pixie is slightly different from the other version.
You do know that not only the Germans rounded people up during the war don't you? Or are you just using the Nazi slogan\reference because its catchy?Yes
Detaining and imprisoning a lot of people put on a relatively arbitrary list without trial, hard evidence or proper independent judicial oversight would very much suit that style garment.
Well I thought I'd try a buzzword out for a change. You inspired me Arazi.
It's basically the same part of the ideology tbh so doesn't really matter. Mussolini had the black shirts and Germany had the brown shirts.
May be a bit childish but Arazi keeps going on about deporting and locking up people without trial, evidence or proper judicial oversight for a while now and TBH it's rather too close for the actions of historic groups for my liking.
It's the ideology and what happened largely prior to the war, nothing to do with thinking they were the only ones.
“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is apt in this sense.
Caporegime
He's not suggesting without evidence though. If they're on a watch list then there must be some evidence. Correction, should be.
What we are seeing though is that all of these perpetrators are on watch lists. No smoke without fire and in these morons cases it's a blast furnace.
Associate
I agree with being extremely tough with those on watch lists but how do you deport someone born in France or UK etc? The only solution is to lock them up but the cost of that is going to be insane. Then do you ever release them? If you do they mostly likely be even more motivated to do something.
Ignoring his insistence that only those on Islamic terrorism watch lists should be caught by this (rather than say Northern Ireland terrorism, far left/right terrorists or other domestic terrorism threats) being on a watchlist is only an indication that you may be in some way related to terrorism or people that are suspected of terrorist sympathies.
If there's actual hard evidence then go ahead and arrest that person, try them and jail them, then deport them after the jail term has ended if they aren't a British citizen. No issues there.
What I am against is the wholesale arrest/deportation without hard evidence or trial of people on a list, many/most of whom may well be on that list but be completely innocent, for example some one that may have associated with someone convicted of terrorism charges. When you start moving into this area a comparison with dictators secret/special units that were used to terrorise and round up groups of people without trial or real evidence of wrongdoing is a reasonably fair comparison IMO.
Yes the law can get in the way, but that doesn't mean we should just dump it at the wayside when life gets a bit trickier. The police face these same problems with gangs and organised crime, but no one is seriously advocating doing the same thing with them are they, even though a large proportion will be known to police.
By all means spend more time and money policing the watch list, monitor these people more closely, gather evidence against those that are truly a danger to the public and then arrest them and send them through the courts.
As you say ( and I've also pointed out in the past) the majority of people that do commit acts of terror are known and on watchlists. Why is our government so insistent on setting up an even greater bulk surveillance apparatus? Why not spend that money on increasing surveillance on those that are actually suspects...
If there's actual hard evidence then go ahead and arrest that person, try them and jail them, then deport them after the jail term has ended if they aren't a British citizen. No issues there.
What I am against is the wholesale arrest/deportation without hard evidence or trial of people on a list, many/most of whom may well be on that list but be completely innocent, for example some one that may have associated with someone convicted of terrorism charges. When you start moving into this area a comparison with dictators secret/special units that were used to terrorise and round up groups of people without trial or real evidence of wrongdoing is a reasonably fair comparison IMO.
Yes the law can get in the way, but that doesn't mean we should just dump it at the wayside when life gets a bit trickier. The police face these same problems with gangs and organised crime, but no one is seriously advocating doing the same thing with them are they, even though a large proportion will be known to police.
By all means spend more time and money policing the watch list, monitor these people more closely, gather evidence against those that are truly a danger to the public and then arrest them and send them through the courts.
As you say ( and I've also pointed out in the past) the majority of people that do commit acts of terror are known and on watchlists. Why is our government so insistent on setting up an even greater bulk surveillance apparatus? Why not spend that money on increasing surveillance on those that are actually suspects...
Caporegime
The problem is though that we really are in to the realms of minority report and thought crime.
The activities that will get you to ping up on a watch list aren't necessarily illegal in isolation therefore making laws against them is nigh on impossible. It's only the next steps that are the problem and by then it's too late.
What we realistically need is a deterrent. What that could be though when these nutters are willing to die I don't know.
The activities that will get you to ping up on a watch list aren't necessarily illegal in isolation therefore making laws against them is nigh on impossible. It's only the next steps that are the problem and by then it's too late.
What we realistically need is a deterrent. What that could be though when these nutters are willing to die I don't know.
Exactly. Do we really want to go down the thought crime route? I certainly don't want our criminal justice system to do so. That is essentially what Arazi and deuse are suggesting however.
Again, agreed. Which is why people need to be monitored. The main issue seems to be the fact the security services and police just don't have the manpower or money to do so for everyone. The reality is though you're never going to be able to monitor everyone effectively and some will slip though the net. We understand that in pretty much all other forms of criminality though. We realise that to protect the innocent from wrongful imprisonment (as best we can) we have to lay the burden of proof on the justice system - innocent until proven guilty.
And again, agreed. It's unlikely that standard deterrents are going to work against people that are willing to die for their cause. Capital punishment certainly isn't going to help. The best way IMO is to strangle the recruitment in the first place, hence my point earlier in the thread about divisiveness and isolation. If you isolate a whole section of society because they are from the same area, or because they have a similar religion all you are going to do is push more people towards feeling like they don't belong in society as a whole.
This kind of thing is in reality little different to other forms of criminality, where we are now spending a lot of money and resources trying to make people feel more included in society, and it helps reduce criminality. That's not to say we should put up with unsavoury aspects because we want to be inclusive, but it is saying that laws and comments specifically aimed at subjugating, belittling and isolating communities certainly doesn't help, whether that be muslims, immigrants or any other self identifying groups in society.
Soldato
RIP to the police officer losing his life in the line of duty. Thoughts are with his family and with those injured. Seems this was a failure of intelligence and the French judiciary and penal system. Unfortunately it appears the perpetrator had some pretty deep seated and unresolved issues with police. Sadly there will always be cases where inmates aren't rehabilitated with success or slip off the radar.
Caporegime
The issue with your solution there amp is that's what our culture tries anyway. We are an open and inclusive people. Isolation is self imposed by many of these communities and groups. In some aspects their beliefs and culture just aren't compatible with ours which furthers this. In Newcastle near me for example there is one area of the city where Asian families will live, irrespective of their wealth. Every house on every street is occupied by a Bangladeshi or Pakistani family and it's through choice. You won't find these families equally distributed throughout the suburbs.
You don't tend to see this amongst other cultures or nationalities. We have a reasonable French population nearby and they're spread all over the place for example.
Saying that Gateshead is renowned for its very sizeable Jewish population and they're the same. Live in one area almost exclusively.
You don't tend to see this amongst other cultures or nationalities. We have a reasonable French population nearby and they're spread all over the place for example.
Saying that Gateshead is renowned for its very sizeable Jewish population and they're the same. Live in one area almost exclusively.
Soldato
Who cares about 1000 years of British criminal justice, culture and society. Must be your American side coming out..
Another chief of the deflect and defend camp. So many on this forum.
Is that the same deflect and defend you just try and shout everyone down with when they don't join in with your hysterical reactions to every event, remember the Borrusia Dortmund explosion, you were hilarious in that one!
It's your fault because you immediately go into one of your terrorist accusation Islam bashing rants before you have the facts, and when people just try to say it might not be the way you are screaming about, you accuse them of being apologists and deflecting and defending.
Yes he is
No, if there was evidence they would act, and they do when while on a watch list they find evidence. Your making the fundamental mistake of discarding innocent until proven guilty by thinking anyone on a watch list is automatically guilty of 'something'
Caporegime
Read the rest of the post. I clearly point out that they're not necessarily illegal.
Often the police won't act against minor crimes - drugs being a great example. They'll monitor and tolerate the low level players to go against a bigger fish when the time is right. No doubt the same is true with some of these too.
So Dave might be seen asking Steve how to make a bomb but they'll sit and watch Dave whilst building their case against the guy providing instruction, Steve. As I pointed out we are in to the realms of thought crime. I've thought about throttling someone at times. It's not illegal to do so. Doing it is the key.
I absolutely agree, no doubt the same is true with some of the people on a terrorist watch list, hence the ridiculousness of the suggestion that everyone on said list should be round up, interred or deported.
Dave might also be on the watch list because his number is in Steves phone, because Steve phoned him to buy that second hand car he was selling, or is just his cousin who knows nothing about Steves bomb building activities.