Poll: Poll: UK General Election 2017 - Mk II

[a1ex2001]

Very dangerous posturing - he is better saying nothing at all than a statement that decreases the effectiveness of the deterrent and its main value is in being a deterrent. If it ever comes to actually using the thing the whole lots has failed.

Hardly very dangerous he won't win he knows that he is just minimising his loss. If he doesn't some miracle win then the subs will still be at sea and the same committee will make the decision to use them that the PM will sign off it's a mountain out of a mole hill!

 

[Caged]

Don't really see how police cuts can be called an issue when last night it took a mere 8 minutes from a 999 call to see three terrorists eliminated that is impressive stuff.

You could make a case that without the cuts then community policing efforts would have picked up on the perpetrators, or provided the ability for more people on the list to be monitored.

I take your point on restructuring, but that costs money. Restructuring without a budget increase to pay for it means further cuts in staffing.

 

[a1ex2001]

That is in London, What about other places that have been affected by the cuts?

Don't get me wrong that was really impressive from our Force. But lets not just focus on London.

Who knows they haven't had to respond in the same way. I would expect the response to be slower in rural Herefordshire London is a prime target and will always have the best response possible other places will plan appropriately.

 

[stewski]

Whole point is it works as an effective deterrent for things not getting that far - the relative peace and security we've enjoyed post ww2 didn't come from a sudden change in human nature.

But you don't advocate all states holding a nuclear deterrent presumably?

 

[stewski]

Who knows they haven't had to respond in the same way. I would expect the response to be slower in rural Herefordshire London is a prime target and will always have the best response possible other places will plan appropriately.

Or in summary, the head of the Met Police knows less than me, I recon they can get on with it...

 

[a1ex2001]

You could make a case that without the cuts then community policing efforts would have picked up on the perpetrators, or provided the ability for more people on the list to be monitored.

I take your point on restructuring, but that costs money. Restructuring without a budget increase to pay for it means further cuts in staffing.

Community policing in the Asian communities really? The British police have failed miserably to build meaningful relationships with disaffected groups across the country for decades not just since austerity.

Restructuring would release more money for increased police head count by virtue of a reduction in senior ranks and duplicated services and is only one of the many options available.

 

[Rroff]

But you don't advocate all states holding a nuclear deterrent presumably?

I have very mixed feelings about that. In some ways who are we to dictate who can and can't have them - on the other hand there are certainly some nations who shouldn't :s same goes the other way as well as we can't un-invent them I'm not a fan of concentrating the power they bring into the hands of too small a number of countries either - a reasonable dilution of that power is a better scenario.

 

[a1ex2001]

Or in summary, the head of the Met Police knows less than me, I recon they can get on with it...

I don't think that at all but taking the word of a senior police officer isn't straight forward he will see this as an opportunity to push for more funding and resources so is bound to say these things.

 

[a1ex2001]

I have very mixed feelings about that. In some ways who are we to dictate who can and can't have them - on the other hand there are certainly some nations who shouldn't :s same goes the other way as well as we can't un-invent them I'm not a fan of concentrating the power they bring into the hands of too small a number of countries either - a reasonable dilution of that power is a better scenario.

It is a very tricky area I find it a bit odd that we are so set against certain countries having them if a much larger number of countries had them it would certainly dilute the power of the few.

 

[stewski]

I have very mixed feelings about that. In some ways who are we to dictate who can and can't have them - on the other hand there are certainly some nations who shouldn't :s same goes the other way as well as we can't un-invent them I'm not a fan of concentrating the power they bring into the hands of too small a number of countries either - a reasonable dilution of that power is a better scenario.

Forget the value judgement (not that I disagree), if you give all/many states a nuke, why not all individuals when it's feasible.
I'll tell you why, because there is virtually no argument that increasing the number of (MAD) actors who can cause a species wide event like nuclear destrction as a good idea.

Frankly arguing for nuclear proliferation is a totally idiotic position.

 

[stewski]

I don't think that at all but taking the word of a senior police officer isn't straight forward he will see this as an opportunity to push for more funding and resources so is bound to say these things.

Its a statement the like of which I've never seen from a senior police officer in my life time!

 

[ethan]

Whole point is it works as an effective deterrent for things not getting that far - the relative peace and security we've enjoyed post ww2 didn't come from a sudden change in human nature.

No. But it should do

Don't really see how police cuts can be called an issue when last night it took a mere 8 minutes from a 999 call to see three terrorists eliminated that is impressive stuff.

All the public services need cuts and restructuring we have two much duplication the number of police forces in the uk is bonkers for example. We currently have three separate air forces!

I can't stand the Tory government but saying the police, fire, ambulance and armed forces don't need restructuring is mad!

Eh! They had to be drafted in from other areas to be able to cope, this is why it is an issue?

 

[Rroff]

Frankly arguing for nuclear proliferation is a totally idiotic position

As with many things there is a balance to it - I certainly don't advocate proliferation - on the other hand you have to be very careful what happens to that power when phasing it out - that kind of power tends to be corrupting when the balance is in the hands of a few.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

I really hope one day you come to understand the doctrine and the difference between Trump and someone who takes a strong defensive posture.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on how the doctrine works or what it's purpose is - however, I and many others (inc Corbyn) think it is a flawed doctrine.

After all, is not the only winning move not to play?

 

[stewski]

As with many things there is a balance to it - I certainly don't advocate proliferation - on the other hand you have to be very careful what happens to that power when phasing it out - that kind of power tends to be corrupting when the balance is in the hands of a smaller number.

Fully agreed and as the Labour party, at this point I don't advocate removing our capability although there arguments about trident as a specific implementation.
I seriously don't advocate proliferation and I'd urge believable defence sharing (ala NATO etc) to widen.

 

[a1ex2001]

Its a statement the like of which I've never seen from a senior police officer in my life time!

Senior police officers moan about resourcing and cuts st every opportunity the MET are just maximising the opportunity at this time. I'm not saying cuts haven't impacted the ability of the police to cope withers threats I'm just saying that public posturing from the power players should be taken with a pinch of salt. The Home Secretary will no doubt say police cuts have had no effect and as head of the uk's policing she should know but I bet you don't take her word for it!

 

[Rroff]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on how the doctrine works or what it's purpose is - however, I and many others (inc Corbyn) think it is a flawed doctrine.

After all, is not the only winning move not to play?

It is one of the oldest doctrines in the world and long proven to be effective, its not foolproof but out of anything it has one of the smallest chances to fail (albeit failure could be somewhat catastrophic) - there may come a day it is no longer relevant but we aren't there yet. Those that think it flawed might not understand it as well as they think.

 

[stewski]

Senior police officers moan about resourcing and cuts st every opportunity the MET are just maximising the opportunity at this time. I'm not saying cuts haven't impacted the ability of the police to cope withers threats I'm just saying that public posturing from the power players should be taken with a pinch of salt. The Home Secretary will no doubt say police cuts have had no effect and as head of the uk's policing she should know but I bet you don't take her word for it!

Absolute hogwash!
Show me in the history of the UK a single Senior police officer go on the record to describe an active PM as a liar!

Pinch of salt, the day you are responsible for the security and safety of 8 million Londoners, have your numbers slashed, listen to your boss lie and then have idiots say it's not a problem because on a single occasion a team came through, on that day you get to push stuff under the carpet!

 

[a1ex2001]

No. But it should do


Eh! They had to be drafted in from other areas to be able to cope, this is why it is an issue?

Any major incident will and should require the drafting in of resources from other areas or are you saying every police force in the country should have enough bodies and kit on the ready line to deal with an infidelity of any magnitude 24/7/365?

Maybe we should build up our armed forces to WWII levels just in case?

 

[stewski]

It is one of the oldest doctrines in the world and long proven to be effective, its not foolproof but out of anything it has one of the smallest chances to fail (albeit failure could be somewhat catastrophic) - there may come a day it is no longer relevant but we aren't there yet. Those that think it flawed might not understand it as well as they think.

And those that still believe in stick analogies might not understand how different this zero sum game actually is!