Possible new tax for over-40s to pay for social care

[muon]

To all you over 40's moaning about boomers, this is your future The generation below is already poised to blame everything on you and how easy you had it.

I think they should learn the lessons of the problems Millennials face and make sure Gen Z have a brighter future who are in an even worse spot currently. Especially if the whole Covid19 thing screws the economy for another 5 years.

Especially as I don't think Gen Y look down on Gen Z much (they have much more in common). Unlike boomers who seem to look down on everyone.

 

[Puzzled]

I think they should learn the lessons of the problems GenX/Millennials face and make sure Gen Z have a brighter future who are in an even worse spot currently. Especially if the whole Covid19 thing screws the economy for another 5 years.

Governments should yes I agree but our government system is terrible at long term planning as it is based around short term votes for the next 4 / 5 years and long term plans don't tend to be vote winners and anything that brings change is disliked by those who have real influence.

I do understand some of the anger towards "boomers" as arguable they should have been thinking long term but the whole economic system that took off after the war has been against long term planning and more about spend spend spend for constant growth. It's just kept on evolving to the point we are at now where that growth can only come from spending money people don't have.

I blame it more on poor leadership and short term-ism rather than my parents generation that just made use of what was available to them at the time. Their retirement isn't looking too rosy either, better than mine will be but everything they have built up over their working lives could easily be wiped out by care costs.

Especially as I don't think Gen Y look down on Gen Z much (they have much more in common). Unlike boomers who seem to look down on everyone.

That will change as they get older

 

[mid_gen]

Oh absolutely, but it's not quite as simple as "increase taxes = more money", and the more you squeeze people, the more they are going to try and avoid being squeezed.

Just take VAT as an example - raise it and people will spend less, lower it and people will spend more.

Obviously finding the balance is the tricky part!

Taxation is low in the UK. That's why our public services are ruined and we're running a perpetual deficit.

I paid a *lot* more tax living in Germany. And you know what? The sky doesn't fall down, the wealthy people don't run away, businesses don't flee to tax havens. What you get is good public services, decent, cheap public transport, and a budget surplus.

It does take a bit of a culture of community and solidarity, of looking out for each other, which has been lost in this country since Thatcher.

Talk to Germans about paying high taxes and they just shrug, well someone has to pay for everything, and I get it back in services, so all is good.

The attitude here of spitting bile at the prospect of paying a little more tax, like it's as a slap in the face, a punishment for success, is just brain-dead.

But yeah let's Clap For Carers... The NHS isn't a goddamn charity. People working there aren't heroes, they HAVE to work to pay to live. Pay people properly for their work. Tax people to pay for it.

 

[Fusion]

Taxation is low in the UK. That's why our public services are ruined and we're running a perpetual deficit.

I paid a *lot* more tax living in Germany. And you know what? The sky doesn't fall down, the wealthy people don't run away, businesses don't flee to tax havens. What you get is good public services, decent, cheap public transport, and a budget surplus.

It does take a bit of a culture of community and solidarity, of looking out for each other, which has been lost in this country since Thatcher.

Talk to Germans about paying high taxes and they just shrug, well someone has to pay for everything, and I get it back in services, so all is good.

The attitude here of spitting bile at the prospect of paying a little more tax, like it's as a slap in the face, a punishment for success, is just brain-dead.

But yeah let's Clap For Carers... The NHS isn't a goddamn charity. People working there aren't heroes, they HAVE to work to pay to live. Pay people properly for their work. Tax people to pay for it.

This is the truth. Also, it's not just the top earners on Germany that pay more- middle and average earners do, too. It's unfortunate that the tax = bad mentality is so deeply rooted in this country. I pay a fair amount myself. It's the only realistic way that quality of services can be raised. I'm all for efficiencies where they can be made, but not if it means outsourcing to the lowest bidder every time. Like many things in life, you get what you pay for. We have the wealth and income base to usher in a shift, but we don't have the will at the top.

It's sad that many people equate increased public investment with socialism and communism. The countries with the world's highest living standards generally tend to have very sizeable public sectors and high levels of public investment, yet have flourishing private sector economies too.

 

[dalepearson]

I think peoples issues in the UK with increased taxation, is that the government can't manage its current budget, so why would you want to give them more to waste.
As the previous poster mentioned about Germany, if you think / feel the money is well spend / invested then you are more willing to make the contributions.

 

[Fusion]

I'd be willing to bet that there's as much waste in Germany and France as there is here. Germany are probably better as they were running a balanced budget which is a dream for any economy, but again- they've got much more going in to start with.

 

[mid_gen]

I don't know what to say to people that object to tax rises in this country any more.

We've just had 10 years of slashing public services, and what did we get out of those 10 years? A balanced budget? No. Strangled growth? Yes. Crumbling infrastructure? Yes. Empty high streets? Yes.

So what are we to do now? Carry on with austerity and pretend it's not going to continue to be a disaster? Borrow gargantuan sums of money?

We need to tax and spend. Everyone needs to pay more, but especially those that need the money the least. Honestly the money I was making in my twenties contracting in the City was absolutely obscene, and I did sweet FA most of the time. It's completely absurd you can earn that sort of money while people doing actual useful work that contributes to society struggle to get by.

 

[Haggisman]

I would happily pay significantly more tax if I knew it was going to be spent properly and actually go into improving the services that so badly need it.

Unfortunately our government barely know how to spell brewery, much less have the ability to organise a ****-up in one.

 

[HangTime]

Why? Because young people already pay 9% extra "tax" on student loans. Also compare your loan size with people graduating now, I would suggest you had things good. They also pay higher interest rates whilst your's has been rock bottom since 2010.

I was being a bit facetious, it's swings and roundabouts with different generations facing different challenges. My sister for example actually overlapped my time at uni yet because she started earlier faced no fees and got a grant despite being (by definition) from an identical household situation. On the flip side looking to younger people, interest rates and fees have got worse as you point out.
I'm not having this 9% extra tax suggestion though It's a loan repayment not a tax, it's not an 'extra' because I paid it as well, in fact the threshold for paying it used to be lower so the 'tax' if we insist on calling it such used to kick in earlier. Nowadays you openly hear people saying they'll just wait for the loan to get written off, easy to say that's just because they are borrowing more money but it's also because they have to earn a lot to even be hit by this tax. Someone who graduated last year could be minting it on £26.5k and making no repayments at all. Whereas back in the day earn over £10k and you were paying it back. Even allowing for inflation that's quite a difference, it used to be even if you took a naff job after uni you would be paying it back, whereas nowadays it's a much more viable option for those who aren't that ambitious. Regardless of our respective loan sizes, I suspect I'll have paid back more than some more recent graduates will.

 

[muon]

The fact that the vast majority of people (under the current loan system) will pay 9% for 30 years and never pay it off is exactly what makes it a tax. It may as well be a £1m debt. The important detail is you losing 9% of your paycheck above a certain threshold. That's just a graduate tax.

The threshold was also never £10k for when tuition fees were introduced. It was over £15k and is now over £19k with inflation.

 

[mmj_uk]

"Honour thy father and mother"?

Instead of new taxes they could just promote more family cohesion and personal responsiblity? I mean it worked for centuries and still does in poor countries, it's a sad state of affairs when people have no family willing or able to take care of them for whatever reason that may be. Maybe go back back to promoting stronger family ties as opposed to the nanny state.

 

[Devilman]

"Honour thy father and mother"?

Instead of new taxes they could just promote more family cohesion and personal responsiblity? I mean it worked for centuries and still does in poor countries, it's a sad state of affairs when people have no family willing or able to take care of them for whatever reason that may be. Maybe go back back to promoting stronger family ties as opposed to the nanny state.

Why honour those who intentionally keep screwing over their kids and grandkids whole generation(s) due to their unwillingness to deal with a problem they themselves created.

Where's the family cohesion in boomers pulling up the ladder after themselves, thereby screwing over both their kids and grandkids.

How many of them even bother to have life insurance to cover their own funeral? Very few I'll take a bet - It's almost always an incurred cost to the family left behind, rather than the "personal responsibility" you talk of.

If boomers had shown an ounce of "personal responsibility" this pension crisis would never have been more than a bump in the road, but instead they preferred to keep voting for parties offering them low taxes, cut services and good pensions. - The net result 40 years later is that they expect their kids and grandkids to foot the bill for the shortfall which they themselves both created and benefited from.

 

[Theophany]

The fact that the vast majority of people (under the current loan system) will pay 9% for 30 years and never pay it off is exactly what makes it a tax. It may as well be a £1m debt. The important detail is you losing 9% of your paycheck above a certain threshold. That's just a graduate tax.

It isn't a tax, it's a loan repayment. Graduates are literally repaying an element of the cost of their further education. If you want to be mad at anybody, be mad at the universities system which pays lecturers on average £45k and gives them cushy pensions - the Universities Supperannuation Scheme is the largest pension scheme in the UK - bigger than any private company's.

It would be more accurate to say that graduates are mortgaging their future earnings with a student loan.

 

[Freakbro]

Taxation is low in the UK. That's why our public services are ruined and we're running a perpetual deficit.

I paid a *lot* more tax living in Germany. And you know what? The sky doesn't fall down, the wealthy people don't run away, businesses don't flee to tax havens. What you get is good public services, decent, cheap public transport, and a budget surplus.

It does take a bit of a culture of community and solidarity, of looking out for each other, which has been lost in this country since Thatcher.

Talk to Germans about paying high taxes and they just shrug, well someone has to pay for everything, and I get it back in services, so all is good.

The attitude here of spitting bile at the prospect of paying a little more tax, like it's as a slap in the face, a punishment for success, is just brain-dead.

But yeah let's Clap For Carers... The NHS isn't a goddamn charity. People working there aren't heroes, they HAVE to work to pay to live. Pay people properly for their work. Tax people to pay for it.

To be honest, it's not like the overall tax burden between the UK and DE is that different and the UK is currently running historically high overall tax levels. An analysis of the overall tax burden in 2016 shows the UK at 33.2% and DE at 37.6%, which is pretty much in the middle of the range of OECD countries, which goes from the USA at 25.5% to Denmark at 45.9%

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...iant-on-tax-revenue-infographic/#7902705a3180

It just seems this country has a hard on for direct taxes, hence why the Tories always manage to convince everyone they are the party of low taxation (by keeping income taxes low) while hammering indirect taxes and thus keeping the overall burden high.

Not that I'm arguing against more tax, it just seems we aren't using the amounts we collect effectively, since all our services have been cut and infrastructure crumbling even at the current levels

 

[Haggisman]

If you want to be mad at anybody, be mad at the universities system which pays lecturers on average £45k and gives them cushy pensions - the Universities Supperannuation Scheme is the largest pension scheme in the UK - bigger than any private company's.

You say that like it's a bad thing? I'd rather have decent teachers/lecturers attracted by a reasonable salary than someone who is only doing it because they are too **** to do anything else! After all, these are the people who could literally affect how the rest of your life turns out (e.g. by making the difference between you getting a 1:1 or 3:1 or even dropping out)

 

[Eurofighter]

Taxation is low in the UK. That's why our public services are ruined and we're running a perpetual deficit.

I paid a *lot* more tax living in Germany. And you know what? The sky doesn't fall down, the wealthy people don't run away, businesses don't flee to tax havens. What you get is good public services, decent, cheap public transport, and a budget surplus.

It does take a bit of a culture of community and solidarity, of looking out for each other, which has been lost in this country since Thatcher.

Talk to Germans about paying high taxes and they just shrug, well someone has to pay for everything, and I get it back in services, so all is good.

The attitude here of spitting bile at the prospect of paying a little more tax, like it's as a slap in the face, a punishment for success, is just brain-dead.

But yeah let's Clap For Carers... The NHS isn't a goddamn charity. People working there aren't heroes, they HAVE to work to pay to live. Pay people properly for their work. Tax people to pay for it.

Agree 100%

 

[Theophany]

You say that like it's a bad thing? I'd rather have decent teachers/lecturers attracted by a reasonable salary than someone who is only doing it because they are too **** to do anything else! After all, these are the people who could literally affect how the rest of your life turns out (e.g. by making the difference between you getting a 1:1 or 3:1 or even dropping out)

I'm saying the cost of education has to be met and it isn't cheap to fund one of the best higher education systems in the world.

That being said, I had minimal contact with any of my lecturers at university. I totally understand teachers making a difference with younger children, but the whole point of University is being able to self-direct ones studies after years of being taught how to learn - hence 'lecturer' not 'teacher.'

 

[wildman]

People strongly against this tax.... are you happy to sell your home and leave nothing to your kids when you get old then?

yes

also why is it not OK for May's so called dementia tax, but it is OK to saddle the generation that is already getting raped by massive house prices, huge levels of student debt, poor job prospects and all round higer costs of living with a tax to keep a certain part of the demographic comfortable..........

This tax would be a tory death knell as those directly impacted would be unlikely to vote for them again if they perceive this as being unfairly taxed to keep the usual tory base (OAP's) comfortable.

 

[wildman]

Is the social care time bomb about to go off?

Feels like it.

I feel the older generation pension home owner generation also need to cough up.

If you own your own home but are retired how is it fair everyone else pays for you? You should pay for yourself too.

Id be happy with this if this money was used to pay for the generation contributing only.

Its not fair to give those who have had such great opportunity another reason to keep thier assets and milk off the younger generation.

exactly this, you own your own house, then start coughing up for your geriatric care, don't like the idea of that, then ship yourself off to dignitas.

 

[Hagar]

This tax would be a tory death knell as those directly impacted would be unlikely to vote for them again if they perceive this as being unfairly taxed to keep the usual tory base (OAP's) comfortable.

Actually probably not unless Labour can extract their digit from their orifice and have policies that don't scare the ponies. In a two horse race Tories win again.