Man of Honour
Umm, who exactly has an MBA and is still doing technical work??
Umm, who exactly has an MBA and is still doing technical work??
The problem you would have trying to get a 'business man' to be technical is that it is harder to teach them techinically than sales.
We had a company who came out to demo a product and instead of sending a techy they sent a sales guy. The only problem with this is that the demonstration went horribly wrong and he had no idea how to remedy it. His job title was Technical Sales and he had been using the product for over two years. Needless to say we weren't impressed and he won't be coming back for a second try.
Again when you ring up a company to buy IT equipment / software there are times you just want to speak to a techy rather than sales. I may want to know what it needs to run on, how it integrates into pre-existing environments, what we need to backup, etc. I just think its stupid to have sales people trying to be technical unless they've done the techy job for several years.
I disagree with that.That's just not true I'm afraid. You can't teach someone business instinct, but you can teach them the technical stuff. Most techies are carp salesmen. They tend to be blunt (tending on downright rude) and semi-incapable of playing nicely with others.
Whats the concencus on ITIL, CompTIA & the new MS stuff?
I disagree with that.
It maybe possible to teach a business person the lingo and a few bits and bobs, but if they arnt of the right mind set by nature, then no way are they gonna match a 'techie'. To highlight, not saying they CANT.
And your second point there is making one heck of a sweeping generalisation too.
Plus, i think that conversation is a little off track as its got nout to do with qualifications and whatnot unless im missing the point?
Whats the concencus on ITIL, CompTIA & the new MS stuff?
You really think its as simple as that?There is nothing hard about computers. You tell the computer what to do and it does it. As long as you know the right syntax, structure, whatever. You tell it to do it and it does it. You get books. All the books you get pretty much say the same things. Do this and the computer/switch/OS/Application will do that.
Same here, and bar perhaps 5-10% of them, the rest of them you wouldnt think we're in IT unless you knew their jobs.I know a lot of IT people. An awful lot of IT people.
So basically, all summed up:ITIL is fine if you want to be a manager, less useful if you want to handle hardware, but I stand by my earlier point that all training is good. CompTIA is very much for the hardware/software handlers and everyone I know is just confused by why Microsoft feels the need to change the qualification structure when they had firmly established MCSE as a real, proper qualification. Everyonme knows that someone with an MCSE can run a Microsoft system, but who knows with the new structure. You really need all of it, as very few jobs allow you to specialise just in ISA or SQLServer administration - usually they want one person who can do the lot.
If you really like the project stuff, do ITIL or PrinceII. And realistically, it's self-study time I'm afraid. Lifelong learning is the only way forward in IT.
You really think its as simple as that?
What if its not in a book? What if it says exactely how it says in the book and youve put in exactely whats needed to get it working and it still doesnt do what its supposed to do. What then?
Same here, and bar perhaps 5-10% of them, the rest of them you wouldnt think we're in IT unless you knew their jobs.
I still maintain that your making a big generalisation.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
So basically, all summed up:
Project Management/Management: Prince & ITIL.
Software: Microsoft & CompTIA
Hardware(infrastructure): Cisco.
Basically?
You appear to have, correct me if im wrong, the impression that IT is easy compared to everything else, specifically business.OK - you're still trying to argue logic, when I was arguing abstracts. The whole point is that for every person you meet;
1. There is no manual
2. Even if there was a manual, the persons disposition changes by the moment, so the contents of the manual would be largely useless anyway.
The way you read people is a skill, and it can be taught, but it's much harder than giving someone a text and asking them to get the basics of Codds Laws or Functional Decomposition, never mind literal stuff like what to press in what order to get something to do what you want.
Soft skills? Software?That's why, from the very beginning I (and at least two others) were pushing soft skills.
NOD32 doesnt complain?I'm not sure if you're aware of this (I'd like to think your PC would tell you), but the last link on your signature [wii>all] attempts to download a trojan on opening. Possibly worth knowing.
http://www.walteranderson.com/Images/trojan.jpg
You appear to have, correct me if im wrong, the impression that IT is easy compared to everything else, specifically business.
I disagree with that for multiple reasons.
The same way you think that business cant be taught but IT can because business is a mindset/skill/instinct, i think about IT.
Its possible to know about IT without being good at it. I know plenty who have learnt IT but cant do much because they dont have that 'mindset' to problem solve for example.
Lets just agree to disagree on that point, again. .
Soft skills? Software?
NOD32 doesn't complain?
Avast is over-protective and labels everything bad though. .
The fact that IT is a complete piece of urine is the best kept secret ever. IT is incredibly straightforward, assuming you are prepared to take the time to learn how to do whatever you want to do. If it was really hard, the starting salaries would be higher, because significantly fewer people would be able to do it. .
So your resorting to personal digs now? Is this part of the soft skills you go on about? .The fact that IT is a complete piece of urine is the best kept secret ever. IT is incredibly straightforward, assuming you are prepared to take the time to learn how to do whatever you want to do. If it was really hard, the starting salaries would be higher, because significantly fewer people would be able to do it. I'm quite happy to yield to your superior knowledge of the IT workplace, given that you appear to have taken no qualifications since you left full-time education (so your employers must be quite happy to dead-end you) and 4 years experience in 2 different roles.
Why are you suddenly defensive?That's why I use Avast - I'd rather have the choice of downloading a trojan or not. If NOD32 doesn't give you that choice then it's possibly not the tool for me.
That wasn't the question that was asked, was it? The question that was asked was how could someone in IT make their CV more attractive.
And there are MBAs and MBAs. Anyone with an MBA from Cranfield or LSE is unlikely to be in IT at all, but I know several people in IT (especially SAP reseller staff) who have MBAs from places like Sheffield Hallam and Birmingham.
There are huge areas of IT where the ability to do it technically is almost worthless (£15-£20K/year) but couple that ability with a smattering of business skills and you have the makings of a very good living in Technical Sales and Support. Knowing how to do something isn't the key - it's knowing how the customer needs it done that's the smart thing. So being able to ask the customer the right questions and analyse the problem are key skills, as are being able to train the customer to operate the system afterwards. The actual coding can be done by a keyboard monkey in India or the Ukraine, as long as the specification is written correctly.
Anyone wondering what IT skills to brush up on is not going to even make the short-list. For example if I need a specialist Pascal/Cobol/Fortran programmer, that's what I'll advertise for, and only suitable CVs will make the list. Likewise CCNA/MCSE jobs.
Selection of candidates for interview then comes down to reading between the lines - I can take a businessman and make him IT literate. It's far easier to do that than to make an IT guy into a businessman. But my ideal is all my people to have MBAs on top of their degrees or HNDs.
I dont know when you took the exams FrankJH or even which exam you took but my experience (I took my last exam a few months a go so it's pretty up to date) is slightly different..
Nowadays its not just questions but simulations as well. So you get to make AD changes, group policy changes, etc, etc, etc. These are heavily weighted as well so you normally get a lot more than 1 questions worth of points..
To pass an exam you need 700 or more points (basically 70%) and at the end of the exam (once you've clicked finish) you can review and leave comments / complaints about each individual question with an overall comment as well..
Then after waiting several seconds (all the PC's they used for the exams were P2 buckets when I took the exams in Birmingham) you get your pass result..
Business skills qualifications - MBA, Accountacy skills
People skills qualifications/Soft skills qualifications (negotiating etc.)
Train-the-Trainer qualifications
and anything that indicates you might be a team player, or a public spirited type - member of a team sports club, volunteer fireman, special constable, St. Johns Ambulance, TA/RNR/RMR/RAFR, charity work etc.
These sorts of qualifications say that you can do much more than the role you're hired for, so you will likely contribute more than others, and that you're a sociable type who can fit in and work with the existing staff. IT still attracts loners/geeks/nerds and who honestly wants to work with someone who still lives with their parents and doesn't know their own shirt-collar size because their mum buys their clothes (I'm not kidding - I interviewed a chap the other week and he didn't know what size boots and overalls he'd need because his mum bought all his clothes for him. Even though he was well dressed and suitably qualified he didn't get the job because he would have been a disaster in my organisation.
Hi.
Whats the general concensus on here regarding IT qualifications?
Ive been told multiple stories about this, some saying MS qualifications are must haves, some saying experiance is better, some saying a mix, some saying only do the MS qualifications for learning (like Exchange), some saying do the CCNA/CCNPs, some saying its only worth going upto MSCA so i can 'open a few doors' so to speak.
What do you all think?
Thanks in advance all. .