Qualifications for IT.

[Una]

I didn't think you could braindump the CCIE... it's a huge practical exam isn't it?

Well I didn't mean that one in particular but a lot are, 8h lab for the 2nd bit.. first bit is written Not done it myself and I don't really plan to unless my employer pays for it

 

[Richdog]

Well I didn't mean that one in particular but a lot are

Well the direct example you used was a CCIE qualified guy... so I think we can be forgiven for thinking you meant that one, there wasn't much room for interpretation. .

 

[Una]

Well the direct example you used was a CCIE qualified guy... so I think we can be forgiven for thinking you meant that one, there wasn't much room for interpretation. .

Indeed. I didn't word it very well

 

[bigredshark]

I met a CCIE who didn't know is-is from EIGRP the other day, kinda shocking. Just shows that certs don't necessarily show technical ability when you can braindump most of them.

Likely you met a guy who said he had a ccie (unless he showed you some proof). I've interviewed people who've apparently had CCIEs and haven't known the first thing, it was so obvious they were lying....

 

[oddjob62]

Likely you met a guy who said he had a ccie (unless he showed you some proof). I've interviewed people who've apparently had CCIEs and haven't known the first thing, it was so obvious they were lying....

Or maybe they've done the written exam and think that mens they are "almost an CCIE"

 

[celliott]

Sorry to kind of hijack this a bit, but what do people think about the comptia qualifications e.g Network+

I've basically just started a job where £x amount is allocated to each person/dept for training purposes. One of the guys on the same title as me is currently doing the CompTia Network Plus course. Are they actually worthwhile? I was under the assumption it wasnt worth doing, just go for the big ones e.g. MCSE, RHCE, CCNA.

 

[m4cc45]

Likely you met a guy who said he had a ccie (unless he showed you some proof). I've interviewed people who've apparently had CCIEs and haven't known the first thing, it was so obvious they were lying....

Would it not have been better to say 'bring in your qualifications to the interview' ?



M.

 

[m4cc45]

Sorry to kind of hijack this a bit, but what do people think about the comptia qualifications e.g Network+

I've basically just started a job where £x amount is allocated to each person/dept for training purposes. One of the guys on the same title as me is currently doing the CompTia Network Plus course. Are they actually worthwhile? I was under the assumption it wasnt worth doing, just go for the big ones e.g. MCSE, RHCE, CCNA.

Wll obviously, like for like, companies would prefer to have a CCNA / MCSE rather then Comptia. I've left out RHCE as there's a lot more Microsoft kit out in the world than Redhat so it's very subjective.



M.

 

[marinecommando]

The Network + was the first IT Qual I took way back in 2002. I believe you can actually use some comptia exams to count towards your MCSE path ie Security+ counting towards your MCSE Security specialisation.

I'm just studying for a CCNA at the moment as I want to add a CCNP to my MCSE's eventually, and I have to say that the Network + and CCNA topics are broadly similar. The CCNA just having more on IOS and being genrally more Cisco-centric (for obv reasons).

If your using more disparate hardware the network+ might be more useful, but if your only using Cisco then I would opt for the CCNA.

 

[bigredshark]

Would it not have been better to say 'bring in your qualifications to the interview' ?

M.

Either way we employ a company to chase references for us and check qualifications, it's a condition of the offer they pass those checks.

I've never bothered saying bring it to the interview really, seems a bit OTT really. If I went for an initial interview and they said, bring along all your certificates and such, then it'd depend on the job if I could be bothered looking them out and taking them or just telling them to forget it.

 

[bigredshark]

Wll obviously, like for like, companies would prefer to have a CCNA / MCSE rather then Comptia. I've left out RHCE as there's a lot more Microsoft kit out in the world than Redhat so it's very subjective.

M.

Depends on the environment, small business sure, Enterprise and ISP environments, loads of unix.

 

[celliott]

I also have close to 4 years SA experience with Linux ,so even if I am not focusing on Linux in my job I think it may be worthwhile getting that RHCE under my belt.

 

[Una]

Wll obviously, like for like, companies would prefer to have a CCNA / MCSE rather then Comptia. I've left out RHCE as there's a lot more Microsoft kit out in the world than Redhat so it's very subjective.



M.

Sure. The way I see it is that if they can demonstrate that they know their stuff in the interview/small technical exam given or admit they don't know certain things but demonstrate their thought processes/how they would find it out then there is a good chance of getting the job. A lot of the people I work with in the security/pen test industry don't have degrees/certs but have been doing this stuff for so long and as a hobby that they know far more than someone who has studied a CCNA/RHCE. One of the best programmers I know has no degree. Depends on the company though. My previous big company I worked for just had HR monkeys who grep'd CVs for buzzwords and couldn't tell the difference between people with a clue and without. That was a really crap environment to work in because the people had no passion and just did the job to pay the bills.

 

[FrankJH]

Oh, I've had a few oddballs turn up to interviews. The guy who couldn't work early mornings because he didn't like getting up early ie. he wanted to start at 11.30am! The guy who wanted to work with good looking young women - could I show him pictures of any women who worked in the office? The guy who wanted me to pay him, but the work would actually be done by his brother, who couldn't leave *** house becasue of his agarophobia (I actually interviewed the brother by video link, and he was good, but my guys have to get out into the world and meet customers). I'm sure there are nutters in all walks of life, but I do seem to meet more than my fair share at interviews.

Apologies I had forgotten about posting in here - and again for possibly sounding agrressive when it wasnt intentional, that does certainly sound like a strange interviewee for sure, just laughs at picking his own hours, some people are going to have a very rude awakening - no pun intended - getting a real job

1. Many, amny IT systems are 'owned' by accountants and understanding how accountants think is utterly vital to customising business management software. I don't remember mentioning art though. I do have one guy who just does sooooo much nicer UI screens than anyone else, and I suspect he has an artistic streak in him..

I see where you are coming from - but surely that kind of stuff has to be learnt in situ as different companies account in numerous ways, most of that kind of stuff is handled by Manager level though in My experience anyway, but different strokes and all that

OK - lets say any customer - internal or 3rd party asks you to do something. Unless you're sat around twiddling your thumbs 24/7 (very unlikely) you will have to determine how fast you can do that, and what it will cost - sometimes you have to bill your hours, sometimes you're just allocating your hours against an internal cost-centre, but ultimately, any decent manager will want you to be controlling your time and costs - anyway - how you agree to do or not to do something for someone is a negotiation. And having those skills will come in extra handy when you do make it to manager. Saying "that's something managers do" makes you sound somewhat limited in your outlook, which I am certain isn't true. Everyone negotiates all the time. It's a very valuable skill..

Ive never had to account for the cost of doing something - but certainly have in the amount of time required - never considered it as negotiating either as there is little give and take in getting configs sorted but I do appreciate the point of view. but there is a lot of give and take in when certain aspects have to be done, especially on trading floors etc I guess its all down to working with people and taking it for granted in how I normally work rather than actual negotiations but yes I can agree with the most part with your points

So you've never had to show a user how to do something? If I roll out my system to a department or company, it comes with an operator manual and training sessions. Typically, I'll get 10-12 people in a training room with a machine each and take them through it, then let them try it out, and do a few exercises. A "Train the Trainer" course is utterly invaluable in my experience at reducing support requests after GoLive! because well-trained users don't need to answer questions.

Laughs - Always showing users how to do things - but mostly on a one to one basis as and when its released to them, never ever thought about doing a training course on the aspects of teaching others, getting training (and time to accomplish the training) in tech matters is difficult enough lol

He had plenty of exactly the skills I was looking for, but the fact that he was innocent enough to admit what he did made me think he wouldn't be a good fit in my team, plus he could be a downright embarrassment in front of customers. Would you want to spend £250,000 with a guy who didn't know what size clothes to wear? I think he could very quickly become a laughing stock actually. .

£250k My god - enough said I guess (thats over 5 years of my wages)

Again, I'm obviously not explaining myself well enough - if I saw 'worked as a barkeep' on a CV I'd think you probably have good social skills and a very sociable personality. The kinds of situations you get in pubs vary massively and the people you have to handle (especially when drunk) mean you actually have to have superb soft skills to cope. I'd say that exoperience says huge amounts about you.

.

fair enough- I was a pub bar man and a hotel manager , but just never really saw the relevance to IT so rarely included it in the body of my cv (only in employment history) and just kept everything relevant to the job being applied for

I do do a huge number of interviews as I often employ staff on the basis that I will train them, and help them, but the pay will be less than stellar. I expect to turn people over after 18 months because at that point I have introduced them to at least 3 potential employers, all of whom will take them on a significantly enhanced pay rate. While they're with me I pay them bottom of scale but it's a free-training zone so if they want to do a course they can. I've spent over £100,000 on training in the last 2 years and I actually fell out with my original business partners because I was '******* away the profits training wasters who were only going to leave anyway'. I see what I'm doing as seeding my indstry with people who think I'm reasonable and helpful, and who will be receptive to giving my companies business in future, after all, I helped them get that fantastic job.

aaahhh so the £250,000 is majorly in the value of the training you give the successful applicants for free while training paying clients?Or do you only get paid when the successful applicants actually get jobs?

Sounds like a good idea - good luck to you, would never do what you are doing personally but can see the merit in it

 

[Vanilla]

aaahhh so the £250,000 is majorly in the value of the training you give the successful applicants for free while training paying clients?Or do you only get paid when the successful applicants actually get jobs?

Don't forget it costs a lot to employ someone over their base rate. For example:

55k Salary
10k pension per year
20k NI contributions

Then insurance, benefits, bonus, car, allowances (london weighting) etc.

Stacks up.

 

[WJA96]

aaahhh so the £250,000 is majorly in the value of the training you give the successful applicants for free while training paying clients?

I can see where the confusion has arisen.

The £250,000 would be the value of a single contract to install a system with a customer. Everyone employed by my company (Bright Rabbit Limited) is a share-holder in the company. None of our people here (including myself) actually take home more than £3840/month as that's basically the maximum you can earn in salary and dividends without paying PAYE or NI. When someone leaves, we have a neat way of buying their shares back that usually nets them another £30-40K without incurring silly amounts of personal tax. £3840/month is only actually £46080/year take-home, but it's the equivalent of £85000 on an employee basis where you're paying NI off the top and then basic and higher rate tax afterwards.

Business mileage/low cost car loans/cheap mortgages/non-contributory pensions/training/books/fancy laptops etc. can all be supplied as valid business expenses and are not taxed either, so they are a great way to increase the value of a package without any deductions.

We all work very closely with the accountants to make sure we pay as little tax as possible, both as individual shareholders and as a corporate body.

I've been operating like this for about 5 years now, and this is my third limited company. I was bought out of my original firm and sold the second one to my biggest competitor.

 

[WJA96]

Don't forget it costs a lot to employ someone over their base rate. For example:

55k Salary
10k pension per year
20k NI contributions

Then insurance, benefits, bonus, car, allowances (london weighting) etc.

Stacks up.

This is all absolutely correct, and it's exactly why I don't have people with me on an employee basis.

 

[Curiosityx]

Personally i think that there is a fine balance between training and experience, ive met both extremes, people who have a number of MCP's and associated vendor certs but no practical experience and people who have been in employment for several years and have fantastic practical stills but nothing on paper.

It realy varies, certifications are more valuable to employers these days in order to gain partner level status which presents a better image to prospective customers.

I took my mcsa, mcse, mcsam and xp mcp whilst working in a pub and was lucky to know someone who would employ me with no previous on the job experience. I have since taken my ccna, iptx and various certs but im lucky to have an employer who appreciates the value of a continuous learning cycle and will fund my ccnp, ccsp and ccvp.

You cant judge someone based on paper qualifications as most can be passed through using intensive study methods, my personal favourite is to put candidates through a mock practical lab and written test for technical posts based on the job role rather than a thorough interview process.

 

[FrankJH]

Don't forget it costs a lot to employ someone over their base rate. For example:

55k Salary
10k pension per year
20k NI contributions

Then insurance, benefits, bonus, car, allowances (london weighting) etc.

Stacks up.

The taxman takes NI out of everyone's paypacket doesnt he (being a standard employee)

Most people also have to provide their own pension (or rely on the state one )

Admittedly benenfits and insurance and bonuses (even though bonuses can be sod all if you work in the financial industry with the markets as they are right now hahahaha) - and rarely do IT poeple I regularly talk to get a company car

I accept the jist of your thought though

snip.

Ahhh I see the fog clearing slightly - thank you for that.

Good luck to you, sounds like you have it all very well worked out

 

[Vanilla]

The taxman takes NI out of everyone's paypacket doesnt he (being a standard employee)

Most people also have to provide their own pension (or rely on the state one )

Admittedly benenfits and insurance and bonuses (even though bonuses can be sod all if you work in the financial industry with the markets as they are right now hahahaha) - and rarely do IT poeple I regularly talk to get a company car

Employer also pays NI. On your payslip it should be under the employers contribution, I think they pay the same amount as you - so effectively the tax man taxes you and then taxes your employer.

With regards to Pension almost all large companies have a scheme of matching, doubling or tripling your contribution. So if you put 6% or, for example, £250 a month into your pension your employer will also put in £250 (or £500, or £750). This is all pure cost