Qualifications for IT.

That is SO off the ballpark and in some respects degrading based on a single occurance

Oh, I've had a few oddballs turn up to interviews. The guy who couldn't work early mornings because he didn't like getting up early ie. he wanted to start at 11.30am! The guy who wanted to work with good looking young women - could I show him pictures of any women who worked in the office? The guy who wanted me to pay him, but the work would actually be done by his brother, who couldn't leave *** house becasue of his agarophobia (I actually interviewed the brother by video link, and he was good, but my guys have to get out into the world and meet customers). I'm sure there are nutters in all walks of life, but I do seem to meet more than my fair share at interviews.

I cant see why any of those qualifications are necessary for IT - what has Accountancy or Art got to do with IT, so you can complete a degree is a good thing but doesnt mean either of those are any use at all surely?

1. Many, amny IT systems are 'owned' by accountants and understanding how accountants think is utterly vital to customising business management software. I don't remember mentioning art though. I do have one guy who just does sooooo much nicer UI screens than anyone else, and I suspect he has an artistic streak in him.

Negotiatiing what? Contracts for 3rd parties etc are down to managers/legal departments nothing to do with the nitty gritty of IT?

OK - lets say any customer - internal or 3rd party asks you to do something. Unless you're sat around twiddling your thumbs 24/7 (very unlikely) you will have to determine how fast you can do that, and what it will cost - sometimes you have to bill your hours, sometimes you're just allocating your hours against an internal cost-centre, but ultimately, any decent manager will want you to be controlling your time and costs - anyway - how you agree to do or not to do something for someone is a negotiation. And having those skills will come in extra handy when you do make it to manager. Saying "that's something managers do" makes you sound somewhat limited in your outlook, which I am certain isn't true. Everyone negotiates all the time. It's a very valuable skill.

Training qualifications - a little bizare to say the least

So you've never had to show a user how to do something? If I roll out my system to a department or company, it comes with an operator manual and training sessions. Typically, I'll get 10-12 people in a training room with a machine each and take them through it, then let them try it out, and do a few exercises. A "Train the Trainer" course is utterly invaluable in my experience at reducing support requests after GoLive! because well-trained users don't need to answer questions.

Depending on their age /experience with interviews, he may have just been flustered - although it sounds like he admitted it, which is a little embarassing I guess lol - but even so, I think yuo where a little harsh (we all have to learn somewhere), he may have had skills your interivew technique didnt highlight

He had plenty of exactly the skills I was looking for, but the fact that he was innocent enough to admit what he did made me think he wouldn't be a good fit in my team, plus he could be a downright embarrassment in front of customers. Would you want to spend £250,000 with a guy who didn't know what size clothes to wear? I think he could very quickly become a laughing stock actually.

Maybe I take my experiences for granted - working in Hotels and pubs probably show as much team work etc and need to muck in without really thinking about it - just think sometimes people need to get given a chance outside an interview situation to be able to prove themselves

Again, I'm obviously not explaining myself well enough - if I saw 'worked as a barkeep' on a CV I'd think you probably have good social skills and a very sociable personality. The kinds of situations you get in pubs vary massively and the people you have to handle (especially when drunk) mean you actually have to have superb soft skills to cope. I'd say that exoperience says huge amounts about you.

I do do a huge number of interviews as I often employ staff on the basis that I will train them, and help them, but the pay will be less than stellar. I expect to turn people over after 18 months because at that point I have introduced them to at least 3 potential employers, all of whom will take them on a significantly enhanced pay rate. While they're with me I pay them bottom of scale but it's a free-training zone so if they want to do a course they can. I've spent over £100,000 on training in the last 2 years and I actually fell out with my original business partners because I was '******* away the profits training wasters who were only going to leave anyway'. I see what I'm doing as seeding my indstry with people who think I'm reasonable and helpful, and who will be receptive to giving my companies business in future, after all, I helped them get that fantastic job.
 
Well you've just mixed a load of rubbish mixed with a few grains of truth.

OK. I respect your opinions, so lets see what you're saying.

How many of the helpdesk people I've worked with could progress to my job, maybe 1%? Real technical ability isn't teachable, enough to get by is but most people, if you taught them for 10 years couldn't do a high level technical job well.

I don't know what your job is, but as the OP is looking to do basic MS qualifications, he's more likely at the helpdesk end of the market. In the beginning, there were no IT people, just accountants and engineers.

Then again, most people in sales (particularly in IT sales) are little better, how many of them could be account managers in really high level companies. Maybe 1%?

The fact that some people are good at both is no coincidence, people who are brilliant tend to be brilliant irrespective of the discipline. They're just naturally talented and will be good at whatever you point them at.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I've switched not just job but industry over last 20 years.

Presently I have no intention of doing an MBA or anything similar, it would only be useful to me in a management role and right now I don't want that role. IT Director, at a decent level is probably going to pay up to 130/140k.

I have no issue with that. It's a valid point.

Thats the same money I can get whoring my CCIE out to banks and a lot less stress, a contractor has to deliver a project successfully, senior management has to account for failures and mistakes which aren't always their own. Why choose a world of stress and explaining some engineers typo to the board when I can deliver a project and then forget all about it?

A good manager is a good manager. The best IT Directors don't have to explain very much to their board as they've managed the situation, populated their department with good staff and are doing a bang-up job. There are, of course, people who are the archetypal chinless wonders with the right old school tie and couldn't manager their way out of a paper-bag, but you get that on every big company board and IT is seen as an easy place to bury a poor hire on the grounds that they can't do much damage in IT (if only they knew!)


My point is, given the question, an MBA is a ridiculous suggestion. It's not only inappropriate for anyone who isn't relatively senior already but hugely expensive.

A distance-learning MBA from Cranfield is about £14000 and requires you to do a huge amount of studying, as well as giving up all your holidays to attend classes. I had a very talented programmer apply for a job with me who was desperate to be a systems analyst. As a programmer he was earning just shy of £50K plus a good package. I offered him £35K plus the MBA plus the time to study. Two years later he left me to join a multi-national clothing company as a systems analyst on well over £100K plus the sort of package most people genuinely only dream about. I introduced him to his new employer and when he said they had offered him a job, I told him that I would think less of him if he didn't take it, as it was his dream job. He got what he wanted, I got what I wanted, and it cost me nothing. He thinks I walk on water and I have all his development contracts, and he's a great reference for my company in the business world.

You don't want to do an MBA, but IT doesn't work in isolation. If you think about it you probably know far more about business rules that you'd like to admit, and that's the sort of thing that an MBA joins up and makes something better than the sum of it's parts. It might just allow you to make the jump from where you are now to being someone who comes up with the next big thing in business. The people behind facebook and paypal and google like to pretend they're not hard-core businessmen, but they make plenty when they sell their ideas to someone else. Maybe an MBA would allow you to develop an idea you've had or will have in the future. It's a possibility.

And there is something incredibly special about handing over your business card when you get a suit made and it says 'Director' on it. It says you're in the top eschelon, whether it's Sales Director, IT Director, Production Director or even Hygiene Director it says you're board-level stuff and that gets a certain reaction from people.

I suspect you are the sort of adaptable person that I would employ, and although you don't want to do an MBA now, I would like to think that you will keep your options open and that, in future, you might rethink that.
 
i think a mixture of experiance and qualifications i would recormend the MCSE, but thats me, but as i say, im stuck as to what to do next.

Like I've said previously, you say you're stuck as what certifications to do, but try to look at what you want to do career wise and this will help you pick appropriate courses to take.

An MCSE is good, if you want to be an MS server guy/gal, but less so if you want to be in project management/ITIL etc.
 
OK. I respect your opinions, so lets see what you're saying.

I don't know what your job is, but as the OP is looking to do basic MS qualifications, he's more likely at the helpdesk end of the market. In the beginning, there were no IT people, just accountants and engineers.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I've switched not just job but industry over last 20 years.

I have no issue with that. It's a valid point.

A good manager is a good manager. The best IT Directors don't have to explain very much to their board as they've managed the situation, populated their department with good staff and are doing a bang-up job. There are, of course, people who are the archetypal chinless wonders with the right old school tie and couldn't manager their way out of a paper-bag, but you get that on every big company board and IT is seen as an easy place to bury a poor hire on the grounds that they can't do much damage in IT (if only they knew!)

A distance-learning MBA from Cranfield is about £14000 and requires you to do a huge amount of studying, as well as giving up all your holidays to attend classes. I had a very talented programmer apply for a job with me who was desperate to be a systems analyst. As a programmer he was earning just shy of £50K plus a good package. I offered him £35K plus the MBA plus the time to study. Two years later he left me to join a multi-national clothing company as a systems analyst on well over £100K plus the sort of package most people genuinely only dream about. I introduced him to his new employer and when he said they had offered him a job, I told him that I would think less of him if he didn't take it, as it was his dream job. He got what he wanted, I got what I wanted, and it cost me nothing. He thinks I walk on water and I have all his development contracts, and he's a great reference for my company in the business world.

You don't want to do an MBA, but IT doesn't work in isolation. If you think about it you probably know far more about business rules that you'd like to admit, and that's the sort of thing that an MBA joins up and makes something better than the sum of it's parts. It might just allow you to make the jump from where you are now to being someone who comes up with the next big thing in business. The people behind facebook and paypal and google like to pretend they're not hard-core businessmen, but they make plenty when they sell their ideas to someone else. Maybe an MBA would allow you to develop an idea you've had or will have in the future. It's a possibility.

And there is something incredibly special about handing over your business card when you get a suit made and it says 'Director' on it. It says you're in the top eschelon, whether it's Sales Director, IT Director, Production Director or even Hygiene Director it says you're board-level stuff and that gets a certain reaction from people.

I suspect you are the sort of adaptable person that I would employ, and although you don't want to do an MBA now, I would like to think that you will keep your options open and that, in future, you might rethink that.

Thats all very valid. A few points are:

Even very good IT directors get done in sometimes, my colleague spent a lot of time working with one of our clients (a FTSE100 company) on a new core infrastructure project, 3 days after it went live it went a bit wrong and chewed up some of their data. (eventually traced to the most esoteric component failure I've ever heard off).

3 months with the manufacturer sorting it and testing in minute detail, then it suffered a minor failure again. Niether failure had major business impact, but the first managed to eat some of the CEOs data. Cue the IT director loosing his job over the whole sorry episode.

My point is he was very good at his job, he bought kit which he was assured would do the job and after the first failure he insisted on rigourously testing it before taking it live again. He could have done little more, it was no one's fault except questionably the manufacturer and they could have pleaded bad luck. But there goes his job (and being let go from that sort of position does your career no good).

I could be an exceptional IT director one day. I have a masters from LSE (in no way IT related) and I'm a very successful network/infrastructure architect. I'm not in any way adverse to business and I do work on a few projects outside of my main job which I'd like to think will be worth money one day but while I can make the same money without the stress and weight of being responsible I'd rather do that because at the end of the day I'd rather be surfing than worrying about work...

An MBA strikes just seems to push me towards management and right now I don't want to go that way at all. Maybe when I'm 35 and looking for a new challenge it'll appeal, I don't rule it out...
 
and I suppose I better make a stab at the OPs question too, I'd suggest working towards the MCSE/CCNP combo that companies love. Which you do first really depends what's more relevent to your current job and what you're good at.

I did my MCSE first and it was moderately interesting but there are only so many companies who need 100 server exchange implementations designing, advanced networking is much more pervasive and only becoming more so.

I'd say it's still the combo to aim for though, plenty of specialist add-ons and project orientated stuff you could add to the mix but those two and some brains will get you £40k a year...
 
Great discussion/arguments WJA96 and bigredshark, thanks for your contribution :)

Makes people like me (young and still at the begining :p) think about all these options and increase their chances of success.
 
Great discussion/arguments WJA96 and bigredshark, thanks for your contribution :)

Makes people like me (young and still at the begining :p) think about all these options and increase their chances of success.

Just wanted to agree with this statement. Some very interesting insights.
 
As it stands, I'm a Senior Network Engineer with the following certifications:
ITIL V3 foundation
RSA SecurID Systems Engineer
CCNA
CCNP - passed last week
Good set of qualifications there. How did you find the CCNA overall?
Ive heard some people say it nails, and others say its quite easy. Hard to gauge.
Is it a Microsoft style thing, as in, the actual answers your supposed to give are nonsence?

What do people think of MCSA vs MCSE?
 
Good set of qualifications there. How did you find the CCNA overall?
Ive heard some people say it nails, and others say its quite easy. Hard to gauge.
Is it a Microsoft style thing, as in, the actual answers your supposed to give are nonsence?
I've not understood why people say that about the MS exams.. they've always seemed pretty straight forward to me.

What do people think of MCSA vs MCSE?
It's like doing another 3 exams ;)
 
I've not understood why people say that about the MS exams.. they've always seemed pretty straight forward to me.
They are for the most part.
But the answers that they want, most of the time, isnt whats generally accepted as the norm IRL. Or what you would actually do, as it seems to expect 100% ideal scenarios for everything, which wouldnt really happen, anywhere.
 
I have to say I think that real world experience counts for so much

I did an IT A level and computing A Level and then managed to get a break in an IT job and worked my socks off, proving that you can work hard and learn fast helps, I have around 5 years experience supporting various networks and AD's.

My present employer took me on with only my A levels and my experience (which has taught me a lot) after proving myself some more they paid for me to become CCNA and are offering to train me further

Just be careful about getting loads of qualifications and no real world experience
 
Good set of qualifications there. How did you find the CCNA overall?
Ive heard some people say it nails, and others say its quite easy. Hard to gauge.
Is it a Microsoft style thing, as in, the actual answers your supposed to give are nonsence?

What do people think of MCSA vs MCSE?

Hi there,

I did both my CCNA and CCNP at a bootcamp - before anyone jumps on that, let me justify my position:
CCNA - I'd been working in the network sector for about a year and a half before my company sent me on training to get certified, this was completly worth while to me, I didn't find the CCNA easy (I struggle with subnetting) - but because I'd been tinkering with the kit and getting good hands-on, so I faired better than most (I also have a testlab under the stairs!) - I didn't struggle with many of the concepts such as IOS and basic routing as I'd already seen and done it.
They changed the CCNA just after I certified, and in my opinion it's better as they've taken out a lot of stuff that's not used but they've added VoIP and ADSL etc.
I'd look for some CBT nuggets for a well known place, so you can guage what you think.

CCNP - I went to a two week bootcamp a year after getting my CCNA, and I failed the routing exam twice and the switching exam once - didn't bother with the other two, but I got all the books and notes from it and came away with one of the four exams, I've then worked hard over the last three months to pass remaining exams, passing the final exam last week - it wasn't a walk in the park, but it's worth it.

The exams are there to test what you know - in detail - there's a least one sim in every exam, and I'd say it's worth quite a bit, the exams are progressive - once you've clicked 'next' that's it no going back. You'll normally find that you have two 'correct' answers, but the right one is the one that's most 'correct' (in the eyes of Cisco).

RSA - that was four days and I took an exam at the end - learnt a lot on that, but it was worth it because I admin the system every day...

ITIL - three days, I personnaly don't find it a huge value day to day as I'm only involved in a small part of the process (that said it's interesting to compare the model with your organisation), but it's worth the paper and the mention on the CV....
 
What do people think of the CCNA nowadays? I always thought it means nothing because is easy (basic network knowledge + IOS basically), but you people say it's quite hard and respected by employers?
 
it's basic knowledge, yes, but you're learning about Cisco gear, CCNA may be the base qualification, but you need that to progress, while you can take any cisco exam with out it - you can't obtain the certification without the CCNA....
 
What do people think of the CCNA nowadays? I always thought it means nothing because is easy (basic network knowledge + IOS basically), but you people say it's quite hard and respected by employers?

Depends, it's good basic stuff, teaches you subnetting well, IOS, a bit of OSPF in there these days. It's not worthless at all, but on the other hand, if I was looking for a network engineer I wouldn't look below CCNP level these days.

It teaches the basics well but a lot of people know the basics these days - so essentially it's a good learning experience but you won't stand out for having done it.
 
Depends, it's good basic stuff, teaches you subnetting well, IOS, a bit of OSPF in there these days. It's not worthless at all, but on the other hand, if I was looking for a network engineer I wouldn't look below CCNP level these days.

It teaches the basics well but a lot of people know the basics these days - so essentially it's a good learning experience but you won't stand out for having done it.

I met a CCIE who didn't know is-is from EIGRP the other day, kinda shocking. Just shows that certs don't necessarily show technical ability when you can braindump most of them.
 
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