Racist! Really?

Uncle Petey · 11 Sep 2018 at 18:40

Yeah, it could've been better...

Don't think the swatch pic is ridiculous though. It clearly shows that her skin tone is pretty close to Serena's, and definitely not the same as the actual white guy.

The fact that she's in the distance and actually does have blonde hair just makes it look like a white chick.

dowie · 11 Sep 2018 at 18:42

Jono8 said:
Truth is we will never know whether it truly did have intentional racist connotations or not. Only the artists knows that.

Well we can use a bit of common sense, is he some secret racist just itching for a chance to include a famous black person with certain features in a cartoon of his or is he simply drawing a cartoon of a black event event in the news as he usually does.

In particular has he drawn black women in the past? Did he make them all massive? Give them all flat noses regardless of whether they had a flat nose? If not then the reasonable conclusion would be that she's drawn as a big woman with a flat nose because she has those features.

Jono8 · 11 Sep 2018 at 18:49

dowie said:
Well we can use a bit of common sense, is he some secret racist just itching for a chance to include a famous black person with certain features in a cartoon of his or is he simply drawing a cartoon of a black event event in the news as he usually does.

In particular has he drawn black women in the past? Did he make them all massive? Give them all flat noses regardless of whether they had a flat nose? If not then the reasonable conclusion would be that she's drawn as a big woman with a flat nose because she has those features.

She has been depicted as quite a fat middle aged/old woman. It obviously goes far beyond a reasonable caricature and straight to how the mother is depicted in the Sambo cartoons (and generally that sort of depiction of an old black woman seen in that and other cartoons such as Tom and Jerry etc).

Again, i don't know whether this was the artist intentionally being racist, or just a **** poor artist, but i can certainly see why the whole illustration has raised eyebrows (taking into account how the opponent was drawn as well).

Jono8 · 11 Sep 2018 at 18:54

Uncle Petey said:
Don't think the swatch pic is ridiculous though.

It is ridiculous because as **** as the artist is, they have still put in a bit of shade/shadow.

Nasher · 11 Sep 2018 at 18:57

Nothing racist about it. How else is he supposed to draw her as a caricature?

Uncle Petey · 11 Sep 2018 at 18:59

Ok, Jono, we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

dowie said:
In particular has he drawn black women in the past? Did he make them all massive? Give them all flat noses regardless of whether they had a flat nose?

Yes, he's drawn them, and no he didn't.
I'd link you, but it seems his twitter page doesn't exist any more... Nor can I find any of his work elsewhere.

I scrolled through his artwork earlier and didn't see many (or any really) featuring black women, but he did paint an Aretha Franklin tribute with her and John Belushi in heaven. Was pretty decent, and had nothing racist about it whatsoever - even for the most easily triggered.

Participant · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:03

Uncle Petey said:
Don't caricaturists usually over-exaggerate features? Isn't that the defining characteristic of the style?
Got a big nose? It'll be even bigger in your caricature. Same goes for ears, lips, whatever.

Also, this quote: "overexaggerated body parts to depict Serena as hyper masculine" is apparently a racist stereotype too. Ok, let's just ignore that she is pretty masculine to the point where many genuinely think she's a man.
Her body parts are over-exaggerated in reality. The cartoon wasn't even that far off in that regard.

This. The sexist / racist bit applies more to those that think it's OK to caricature white people but not black.

Jono8 · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:08

Participant said:
This. The sexist / racist bit applies more to those that think it's OK to caricature white people but not black.

No, the problem most have with it is that it isn't really a caricature of her. It literally looks nothing like her and has even depicted her as fat.

This is quite a good article on it:

https://www.gq.com/story/australian-cartoonist-serena-williams-racist

Again though, i'm on the fence as to whether it was intentionally racist. I think it could just as easily be a very poor drawing by an insensitive illustrator.

StriderX · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:08

Well as long as the lips aren't bright red, i guess I can't really see the issue, does make her seem rather ugly though.

Participant · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:09

Jono8 said:
No, the problem most have with it is that it isn't really a caricature of her.

That's not an objective statement, assuming you're agreeing with the 'most' you refer to. In fact it is a caricature of Serena. <--that's not objective either, but then I guess none of this is.

I just can't understand why, in a truly egalitarian society, a white person with thin lips can be caricatured as such but not a black person with big lips. White people always have thin noses and are often depicted as such in political comics etc. That's not called out as racist by offendees.

Mr Jack · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:14

I'm inclined towards "not racist". It's an exaggerated caricature. Exaggerated features are a standard part of caricatures, and this exaggerates the features of Serena Williams. She is superbly muscled, she does have a wide mouth with full lips, and she did have her hair done in a topknot.

However, it does reflect racist depictions of black people from the past, and the artist has form for using those, so perhaps he should be a bit more careful? It's not like any satirical artist should be able to claim ignorance of the history of racist caricature.

Participant · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:29

Mr Jack said:
I'm inclined towards "not racist". It's an exaggerated caricature. Exaggerated features are a standard part of caricatures, and this exaggerates the features of Serena Williams. She is superbly muscled, she does have a wide mouth with full lips, and she did have her hair done in a topknot.

However, it does reflect racist depictions of black people from the past

Whilst noting your first sentence, this is a classic example of the cum hoc fallacy. Because it resembles historicalracist depictions, it must always and forever after be racist.

Jono8 · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:29

Participant said:
That's not an objective statement, assuming you're agreeing with the 'most' you refer to. In fact it is a caricature of Serena. <--that's not objective either, but then I guess none of this is.

I just can't understand why, in a truly egalitarian society, a white person with thin lips can be caricatured as such but not a black person with big lips. White people always have thin noses and are often depicted as such in political comics etc. That's not called out as racist by offendees.

It looks absolutely nothing like her. Without the tennis racket it literally looks like a fat old woman jumping up and down. It doesn't represent a 36 year old athlete in the slightest. This is why people are comparing it to the Sambo comics amongst others - because it doesn't resemble an athletic tennis player. It resembles how old black women were depicted in such comics/cartoons. If you couple that with the opponent being a stick thin white blonde woman, then the you can see why it has raised some eyebrows.

Again though, i have no idea if this was intentional. The artist is probably just ****.

Participant · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:31

Jono8 said:
It looks absolutely nothing like her. Without the tennis racket it literally looks like a fat old woman jumping up and down.

And yet everyone instantly knew it was Serena, which is the point.

Just go and look up any caricature since the dawn of time and tell me how closely they resemble their subjects. Roughly to the same extent this resembles Serena is probably the answer in almost all cases.

Jono8 · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:34

Participant said:
And yet everyone instantly knew it was Serena, which is the point.

Just go and look up any caricature since the dawn of time and tell me how closely they resemble their subjects. Roughly to the same extent this resembles Serena is probably the answer in almost all cases.

It is a a terrible caricature. It hasn't just emphasised characteristics. It has changed how she looks completely.

dowie · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:36

Jono8 said:
She has been depicted as quite a fat middle aged/old woman. It obviously goes far beyond a reasonable caricature and straight to how the mother is depicted in the Sambo cartoons (and generally that sort of depiction of an old black woman seen in that and other cartoons such as Tom and Jerry etc).

Again, i don't know whether this was the artist intentionally being racist, or just a **** poor artist, but i can certainly see why the whole illustration has raised eyebrows (taking into account how the opponent was drawn as well).

I'm not sure where you're getting that she's been depicted as an old woman? And again she is big and she does have a flat nose... you're trying to make a link that isn't there. You're being deliberately disingenuous tbh.. if he has, as the poster above has claimed, drawn black people in the past who don't have flat noses or aren't large and has drawn them without those features then it is rather more apparent that he's drawn Serena in this way because she does have those features and not simply because she's black and he's got a thing for some old cartoons.

Participant · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:39

Jono8 said:
It is a a terrible caricature. It hasn't just emphasised characteristics. It has changed how she looks completely.

If it had been Andy Murray - guessing skinny with a massive mouth and terrible hairline - people wouldn't have been bothered, irrespective of how close the resemblance to Andy Murray was. I think the point of caricatures is being missed. They're not portraits.

Mr Jack · 11 Sep 2018 at 19:41

Participant said:
Whilst noting your first sentence, this is a classic example of the cum hoc fallacy. Because it resembles historical racist depictions, it must always and forever after be racist.

No, it's saying that icons and words have meanings and those meanings are informed by history. For example, the swastika is ancient symbol but if I get one tattooed on my face no sensible person is going to buy into my protestations that I intended it as a Hindu symbol of peace and I could hardly claim ignorance. A satirical artist claiming ignorance of historical racist depictions is almost certainly being disingenuous.

Jono8 · 11 Sep 2018 at 20:05

Mr Jack said:
No, it's saying that icons and words have meanings and those meanings are informed by history. For example, the swastika is ancient symbol but if I get one tattooed on my face no sensible person is going to buy into my protestations that I intended it as a Hindu symbol of peace and I could hardly claim ignorance. A satirical artist claiming ignorance of historical racist depictions is almost certainly being disingenuous.

Exactly.

dowie · 11 Sep 2018 at 20:07

I had a quick google but I'm not sure he's drawn many women of black (African) origin in the past, I've found some of Obama and Bolt though, neither of which seem to be problematic. I'm going to stick with my view that he's drawn Serena as a large woman with a flat nose having a tempt tantrum because she is a large woman with a flat nose who had a temper tantrum...