RDNA 3 rumours Q3/4 2022

[nvidiamd]

See your points would be valid if non sponsored games didn't add RT and sony + microsoft weren't adding rt to all their games too Remember sony have filed patents to improve their RT as well. Whilst we want to see more RT (or some of us anyway....), developers will want it more because it makes their jobs easier and quicker, yes they are having to do more work when supporting both raster and RT but as we have seen with likes of DL 2, it is just the way this is going to go with the evolution into RT only visuals i.e. raster will be phased out and if you want better/fancier lighting, shadows, reflections etc. then use the RT settings i.e. you want better visuals, buy a better gpu as has always been the case, this is no different but then developers will get **** because "zOMG, you intentionally made raster look bad because nvidia paid you to gimp raster in order to make RT look better!"

Avatar is due next year and it is RT only. These so called "tech demos" are needed because it shows other development studios what is possible and gets them interested, same with my work in development, I attend conferences where you hear/see people talking through new tools and so on that they have adopted into their products and what the benefits are etc. then it gets other companies/product teams wanting to do the same, this is just how technology/products work, if everyone was happy to stick with old methods because it just works or is what they are familiar with then we wouldn't be progressing at all, someone has to take the leap to progress.

You need to stop for a second and put everything in order: Sony and MS adding RT to all their games: Yes as long as they can do 30FPS on consoles or get a sponsorship for their release on PC? What is the game they brought or they will bring to PC without partenering with anyone, where they will push heavy RT levels of performance?
Devs will want more because it makes their job easier and simpler. It may be true that it is easier and simpler but it is not easier or simpler when you are doing it as an addon to rasterization. And so far we don't have any examples where adding RT made the job easier for anyone. It may be true in the future. Maybe with Avatar but i have high doubts it will be RT only.
Most of what you write every time is really wishful thinking. Before you attend the conferences and listen to people, imagine yourself running a gaming company and trying to sell your product to as many people as you can. It makes sense to develop now a RT only game? With some settings that will crush Ampere/ new Radeon levels of performance? How many people will buy such a game?

 

[gpuerrilla]

I think people are universal in agreement...

if you know.. you know!!

 

[gpuerrilla]

My 3080 Ti already gives me 60 FPS with RT and DLSS Performance.

So what's the point in getting a chubber over the 4090 then?

 

[Nexus18]

You need to stop for a second and put everything in order: Sony and MS adding RT to all their games: Yes as long as they can do 30FPS on consoles or get a sponsorship for their release on PC? What is the game they brought or they will bring to PC without partenering with anyone, where they will push heavy RT levels of performance?
Devs will want more because it makes their job easier and simpler. It may be true that it is easier and simpler but it is not easier or simpler when you are doing it as an addon to rasterization. And so far we don't have any examples where adding RT made the job easier for anyone. It may be true in the future. Maybe with Avatar but i have high doubts it will be RT only.
Most of what you write every time is really wishful thinking. Before you attend the conferences and listen to people, imagine yourself running a gaming company and trying to sell your product to as many people as you can. It makes sense to develop now a RT only game? With some settings that will crush Ampere/ new Radeon levels of performance? How many people will buy such a game?

Again where are you getting this whole "if it has RT, it must be sponsored" from? We have seen plenty of titles that are neither amd nor nvidia sponsored..... And obviously console games aren't sponsored by either.... If consoles can't do 30 fps then yes, sacrifices will be made, be that RT, normal raster effects or the most common method, resolution.

It's not a case of it "may be true", it is 100% true, we have seen and heard first hand from developers where RT methods significantly improves their workflow, no one has posted anything to show otherwise.

Unless something changes between now and release date, avatar has been confirmed to be RT only.

Again this is where if you worked in development space, you would get what I mean..... Does it make sense to say for example, migrate from one cloud provider to another when our solution is working perfectly well in the current one? Without going into all the details, yes and no. Does it make sense to refactor our product to another framework when again it is working perfectly well? Without going into all the details, yes and no. Does it make sense to change our security code scanning tools when our current one work just fine? Without going into all the details, yes and no. Does it make sense to switch from IAAS to PAAS or CAAS? Without going into all the details, yes and no. I imagine it will be the exact same for the "games" development space too. The main reason, raster. won't be dropped right now is because old consoles without RT support are still being supported.

Again, see metro ee, you keep thinking that if RT only, performance will be crushed when in fact, performance can be better than the current raster + RT hybrid approach, including amd hardware again, metro ee runs better than the old version, 4a enhanced even said there is a lot of untapped power with the consoles when it comes to RT.... now that the tech has matured a bit better and developers will have better idea of how to get more from it given they have more experience with it, chances are, we'll see developers being able to get better results as time goes along, which was the exact same with rasterization. Portal RTX and CP overdrive mode is not best case scenarios for "mass adoption", as you said, they are more "tech demos" to show the next stage of RT.

Since you seem to know what is the best way forward, what is your approach for us to phase into the RT only era?

 

[Joxeon]

People will be able to enjoy CP as it is now with rdna 3, which is great, it is still one of the best, if not the best looking games with the "current" RT visuals...

The problem is the upcoming patch where a **** ton of the RT is being dialled up (like I have always said, what we have seen with likes of cp in its current form is literally just the tip of the iceberg of what RT can provide, it is being held back considerably as we still haven't got the hardware nor even software solutions to get us to where we ultimately want to be), also, the difference between the 40xx and rdna 3 could very well even be much bigger when that patch lands or/and more games are optimised using nvidias new SER or whatever it's called rendering methods which apparently improves performance by up to 43/48% for 40xx hardware.....

Ultimately, we need to start seeing more metro ee kind of games but again, that won't happen until old gen consoles are dumped. The "we don't have the budget option for RT" argument has been debunked many times already as shown by metro ee on current gen consoles and weaker/older RT capable gpus.

Essentially it is just going to be rdna 2 vs ampere all over again, games will now start pushing rt a bit more with the new improved hardware we have and rdna 3 as well as ampere will just simply need settings reduced compared to the 4080/4090 over the next 2 years.

You can blame nvidia just as much for that if Devs focus less on RT as nothing they look to bring out for under 1k will have much better RT than ampere judging by the performance of the unlaunched 4080 12gb.

 

[CuriousTomCat]

You need to stop for a second and put everything in order: Sony and MS adding RT to all their games: Yes as long as they can do 30FPS on consoles or get a sponsorship for their release on PC? What is the game they brought or they will bring to PC without partenering with anyone, where they will push heavy RT levels of performance?
Devs will want more because it makes their job easier and simpler. It may be true that it is easier and simpler but it is not easier or simpler when you are doing it as an addon to rasterization. And so far we don't have any examples where adding RT made the job easier for anyone. It may be true in the future. Maybe with Avatar but i have high doubts it will be RT only.
Most of what you write every time is really wishful thinking. Before you attend the conferences and listen to people, imagine yourself running a gaming company and trying to sell your product to as many people as you can. It makes sense to develop now a RT only game? With some settings that will crush Ampere/ new Radeon levels of performance? How many people will buy such a game?

Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition is an example of a game which requires DirectX Raytracing 1.1. It literally doesn't have any raster-based lighting or shadows at all so the game won't even run on a 1080 Ti. So I'm sure the developers had a much easier job.

 

[Nexus18]

You can blame nvidia just as much for that if Devs focus less on RT as nothing they look to bring out for under 1k will have much better RT than ampere judging by the performance of the unlaunched 4080 12gb.

Agree but case in point here is we have seen first hand that current hardware including consoles are perfectly capable of moving to RT only games if needs be. Titles like portal rtx and overdrive mode in cp are largely tech demos for the next generation of RT capability, obviously primarily as showcases for nvidias 40xx range, which is where both nvidia and amd have failed:

- nvidia by not providing better priced options
- amd by matching 2 year old tech and also asking for silly money in the grand scheme of things

Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition is an example of a game which requires DirectX Raytracing 1.1. It literally doesn't have any raster-based lighting or shadows at all so the game won't even run on a 1080 Ti. So I'm sure the developers had a much easier job.

And also runs better than the raster + RT version across all hardware......

 

[chroniclard]

May as well close this thread. It's just endless RT bitching frm the trolls.

 

[nvidiamd]

Since you seem to know what is the best way forward, what is your approach for us to phase into the RT only era?

Nvidia selling at least 10 millions of their 4090s ( you should help them since you want RT only games so much ) and PC players spending a lot more money on games. That is the only way forward to RT only games. If there is a big enough market, there will be games. If there isn't a big enough market, there will be no games or at least no good games.
Why is so hard to understand? Why is there no game with 1000 samples or bounces? Because there is no hardware owners that can run it. Why there are no RT only games? Because there are not a lot of hardware owners that can potentially buy such a game. It doesn't make sense economically to make such a game right now. Better put on the extra hours and make the game run ok on the PS4. PS5, Xbox, Pascal, Turing, Ampere and Radeon hardware and add RT on top of that. That is what any common sense developer will do at least until PS5 and Xbox will die. Oh and if you can make the game run on Switch and Steamdeck, thats even better.

Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition is an example of a game which requires DirectX Raytracing 1.1. It literally doesn't have any raster-based lighting or shadows at all so the game won't even run on a 1080 Ti. So I'm sure the developers had a much easier job.

I will say it for the last time. Metro Exodus EE is a new release of a game that runs pretty well without ray tracing. It is in no way different from a gameplay perspective, it is just another Quake RTX.
The developers first had to make Metro Exodus. Then they made Metro Exodus EE. If that means much easier job for you, i take my hat off. Even if they worked a single day on Metro Exodus EE, that is extra work. Is it so hard to understand?

 

[humbug]

What’s funnier to me is people trying to justify paying 1000 per card to NOT play with top tier visuals.

Gotta have those 600 fps in csgo amirite?

Raster is irrelevant, no one needs either of the top cards for raster only. For raster you might as well buy a 2 old gen card and be happy with that.

If the tables were turned, everyone knows the hypocrisy would be real sweet to read.

Just like ‘pfff dlss is garbage, we play native or bust’. O wait fsr comes out best thing since sliced bread.

‘Pfff dlss3 fake frames’… o wait fsr 3 motion smoothing best thing ever. That i might agree since fsr3 might be usable on all cards not just latest gen

Raster is irrelevant? Do you only play RT games? Well have fun with that, at 41 FPS with your £2500 Nvidia GPU.

 

[KompuKare]

People are saying it's great that AMD have increased performance without increasing price from 6900 to 7900 unlike Nvidia roughly doubling the cost of 4080 vs 3080. But then AMD turnaround and say the 7900 is a competitor to the 4080 and not the 4090. So have they actually increased prices as their previous gen xx80 series competitor was the 6800xt which had an rrp of about £650 I think, not £999 that we see for this gens xx80 competitor. Kinda looks like they pulled an Nvidia to me.

Either that or 7900xtx was intended to be a 4090 series competitor until they saw the reveal and realised they couldn't compete with RT so since then restructured their pricing.

Yes, I think @uscool nailed it: the lesser of two evils.
Or in other words, Nvidia taking the proverbial made it easy for AMD to offer better value.

While the nodes for Navi 31 are more expensive, combined they cost less than Navi 21 did. Although the cost of packaging and substrate is unknown. 20GB / 24GB costs s but more, but it look like their margins will actually increase?!

Still chiplet is risky, and Nvidia's Costas are high because they're not using them - plus Samsung 8nm must have been really cheap last get too.

 

[humbug]

You can blame nvidia just as much for that if Devs focus less on RT as nothing they look to bring out for under 1k will have much better RT than ampere judging by the performance of the unlaunched 4080 12gb.

RT is now the thing Nvidia use to justify GPU's that are priced way above equivalent AMD GPU's.

Now watch people say its AMD's fault because they can't compete with Nvidia in Cyberpunk2077, a game Nvidia made to run at 41 FPS on an RTX 4090.

 

[Troezar]

One thing I think we'll see with all these price hikes is the average age of a PC gamer going up. I can't see many kids buying $1,000+ GPUs and obviously if you can't do ray tracing well it's pointless That's a bad thing for numbers but might improve the maturity of the community...then again given the behaviour of summer if the whales with $1,000+ cards we might be better with more kids in the space

In all seriousness though the pricing isn't helping anyone thinking of jumping into PC gaming. The basic platform costs aren't that high right now just the GPUs are way out of line compared with other components.

 

[Darujhistan]

When did this turn into the "Justifying spending 2K on a GPU because Ray-Tracing" thread?

 

[Joxeon]

Yes, I think @uscool nailed it: the lesser of two evils.
Or in other words, Nvidia taking the proverbial made it easy for AMD to offer better value.

While the nodes for Navi 31 are more expensive, combined they cost less than Navi 21 did. Although the cost of packaging and substrate is unknown. 20GB / 24GB costs s but more, but it look like their margins will actually increase?!

Still chiplet is risky, and Nvidia's Costas are high because they're not using them - plus Samsung 8nm must have been really cheap last get too.

Yeah, had nvidia priced the 4080 16gb at $700-800 then AMD would have likely priced the 7900XTX the same since it's their halo card but the 7900XT would have been renamed to a 7800XT and priced around $600-700

 

[Nexus18]

May as well close this thread. It's just endless RT bitching frm the trolls.

Trolls???

It is perfectly valid to talk about it as whether people care for RT or not, it is a feature of RDNA 3 and an industry standard thing now which is only gaining more traction, if it wasn't a feature worth having, amd wouldn't have even bothered addressing it in their event.....

But agree somewhat, it is going a bit too RT focussed now.

Like I said before, RDNA 3 on the whole is good, I wasn't expecting anywhere near ada RT perf but I also wasn't expecting it to only match 2 year old ampere either, after all MLID said it would be much better than ampere....

Nvidia selling at least 10 millions of their 4090s ( you should help them since you want RT only games so much ) and PC players spending a lot more money on games. That is the only way forward to RT only games. If there is a big enough market, there will be games. If there isn't a big enough market, there will be no games or at least no good games.
Why is so hard to understand? Why is there no game with 1000 samples or bounces? Because there is no hardware owners that can run it. Why there are no RT only games? Because there are not a lot of hardware owners that can potentially buy such a game. It doesn't make sense economically to make such a game right now. Better put on the extra hours and make the game run ok on the PS4. PS5, Xbox, Pascal, Turing, Ampere and Radeon hardware and add RT on top of that. That is what any common sense

I will say it for the last time. Metro Exodus EE is a new release of a game that runs pretty well without ray tracing. It is in no way different from a gameplay perspective, it is just another Quake RTX.
The developers first had to make Metro Exodus. Then they made Metro Exodus EE. If that means much easier job for you, i take my hat off. Even if they worked a single day on Metro Exodus EE, that is extra work. Is it so hard to understand?

Will repeat again.... Why are you insisting on RT being so tied in with nvidia..... and now pc only thing

Metro EE is also on consoles and works/plays perfectly well......

Again, you seem to think for us to have RT only titles, they must be pushing crazy level of bounces and bring fps down to 10-20fps when this is not the case.

Metro EE was a tech demo primarily to show RT only can be done and can work perfectly well on all RT capable hardware, this includes consoles, did 4a enhance achieve their goal, yes absolutely.

I suggest having a read through their very in depth article:

IN-DEPTH TECHNICAL DIVE INTO METRO EXODUS PC ENHANCED EDITION — 4A Games

OUT NOW! We’re happy to let you know that the Metro Exodus PC Enhanced Edition is now released, bringing on board incredible improvements for Ray Tracing-capable GPUs, including Field of View options, DLSS 2.0, and much more. It is also a free entitlement to current owners – as it is so extensive

www.4a-games.com.mt

For sake of thread, lets just as usual, agree to disagree

 

[Joxeon]

RT is now the thing Nvidia use to justify GPU's that are priced way above equivalent AMD GPU's.

Now watch people say its AMD's fault because they can't compete with Nvidia in Cyberpunk2077, a game Nvidia made to run at 41 FPS on an RTX 4090.

As I've said before nvidia is great at creating a problem so they can sell you the solution.

 

[humbug]

As I've said before nvidia is great at creating a problem so they can sell you the solution.

Right, exactly.

 

[nvidiamd]

Will repeat again.... Why are you insisting on RT being so tied in with nvidia..... and now pc only thing

Metro EE is also on consoles and works/plays perfectly well......

Again, you seem to think for us to have RT only titles, they must be pushing crazy level of bounces and bring fps down to 10-20fps when this is not the case.

Metro EE was a tech demo primarily to show RT only can be done and can work perfectly well on all RT capable hardware, this includes consoles, did 4a enhance achieve their goal, yes absolutely.

I suggest having a read through their very in depth article:

IN-DEPTH TECHNICAL DIVE INTO METRO EXODUS PC ENHANCED EDITION — 4A Games

OUT NOW! We’re happy to let you know that the Metro Exodus PC Enhanced Edition is now released, bringing on board incredible improvements for Ray Tracing-capable GPUs, including Field of View options, DLSS 2.0, and much more. It is also a free entitlement to current owners – as it is so extensive

www.4a-games.com.mt

For sake of thread, lets just as usual, agree to disagree

Sorry i thought the 4090 is the only hardware right now to play RT games ar okish level, that's why i said the only way to RT only games was for Nvidia to sell 10 millions of them.
You gave yourself the answer in the comment but you still refuse to accept it: "Metro EE was a tech demo"
There is your answer. It was not created to make money for the company. It was designed to show what can be done and it did that beautifully. But the gaming companies need to make money they can't make tech demos 24/7. Therefore it will be easier for any company to go to the old route and make their games available to Pascal ( or even older ), older Radeon, Switch and Steamdeck owners too.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

RT is now the thing Nvidia use to justify GPU's that are priced way above equivalent AMD GPU's.

Now watch people say its AMD's fault because they can't compete with Nvidia in Cyberpunk2077, a game Nvidia made to run at 41 FPS on an RTX 4090.

Soon it will be Atomic Heart,at even worse FPS on an RTX4090. Just need to upgrade to an RTX4090TI Ultra with Faaake Frames 3 for £3000!