Red Bull issue, F1 rules in general?

Soldato
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Without diluting the Malaysian GP thread I thought id pose a few points and questions here.

I watched this weekends GP with a renewed interest from about half way into the race.

We all know what transpired, and I am conflicted with the way the setup is at the moment.

Team Orders, I personally completely and 100% disagree with and will never think they are a good thing or good for the sport. F1 drivers are considered the best drivers in the world, and they are employed to WIN races.

Vettel is a born winner, everyone can see that, the same as all of the other drivers, so to be told to "hold position" is wrong, and extremely anti competitive.

I know there are arguments both ways, the fact that if we break it down as employee vs employer, he disobeyed an instruction from his employer and should be punished.

But lets look at it from the viewers perspective, both the millions watching worldwide and those that made the effort to go to the race are being stripped of what they are trying to watch and that is good, true racing.

15 laps from the end of the race, mercedes and red bull had both told their drivers to hold position and 'conserve tyres and fuel', pretty much ending the race as a spectacle right there (other than races further down the pack).

How can this be allowed? A good comment was made on TalkSport this morning regarding those betting on the race? Imagine those people who had bet on Vettel to win and then heard the message that he was to hold the position behind Webber and he followed that instruction?

F1 as a sport, as a spectacle has become too much a game of chess. Races are won in the pits and by good tyre choice and good decisions over the weather, not by the drivers actually out racing. The advent of DRS basically making passing a car as easy as pushing a button.

Every team being able to listen to every other teams radio messages, etc.

Im sure a lot will argue regarding the safety of the drivers with regards to things like DRS, but track and vehicle safety has come on leaps and bounds since tragedy such as Senna and Ratzenberger.

The accumulation of the above means I won't watch anything other than the start of the races now, purely because any true battles within the race itself will be put to bed by the team because either they want to make sure the car stays in one piece or they are more interested in the manufacturers title.
 
People forget that F1 is two competitions in one. There is a prize for an individual and a prize for a team, but it is the teams that are spending the money, building the cars etc etc.

I'm not going to disagree with you that it it does sap some of the excitement when inter-team rivalry is nerfed because of the needs of the team but you're still watching a battle between teams!

Fuel and tyres are part of their arsenal. You run out of ammo and you're screwed so it is in their interests to fight as hard as they can at the right moments and conserve fuel and tyres at other moments. Which is the tradeoff made to keep the sport sustainable and affordable for those taking part.

DRS wasn't introduced as a push-to-pass system for the sake of it either, it was there because people complained bitterly about drivers not being able to pass at all when they were in the dirty air of the car in front. I've seen several occasions where a driver has cruised up at maybe 0.5-1s a lap only to get completely stuck behind the car in front due to the aero no longer working. That's not racing either, at least DRS lets the quicker car have a chance of overtaking!
 
Out of interest, which competition gives to most amount of money?

The teams prize money is based on Constructors points.

But its not really 2 different competitions, as its all the same points, just organised on different ways. The success of the team ultimately depends on the success of each individual driver.

I'm with Wayn0r, the biggest issue in this whole thing is the nullification of the racing due to team orders. Had everyone obeyed their orders, we would have had 15 laps of nothing happening. As it was, we got a great battle. As a fan of F1 as a racing series above any individual allegiances, this bugs me.
 
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Yep, finishing high in the standings can be make or break for the minnow teams. FI were hugely pushing to be a "page 1" team a few years back to ensure they survived.
 
People forget that F1 is two competitions in one. There is a prize for an individual and a prize for a team, but it is the teams that are spending the money, building the cars etc etc.

I'm not going to disagree with you that it it does sap some of the excitement when inter-team rivalry is nerfed because of the needs of the team but you're still watching a battle between teams!

Fuel and tyres are part of their arsenal. You run out of ammo and you're screwed so it is in their interests to fight as hard as they can at the right moments and conserve fuel and tyres at other moments. Which is the tradeoff made to keep the sport sustainable and affordable for those taking part.

DRS wasn't introduced as a push-to-pass system for the sake of it either, it was there because people complained bitterly about drivers not being able to pass at all when they were in the dirty air of the car in front. I've seen several occasions where a driver has cruised up at maybe 0.5-1s a lap only to get completely stuck behind the car in front due to the aero no longer working. That's not racing either, at least DRS lets the quicker car have a chance of overtaking!


Agree with what you are saying to a point, but lets look at it this way.

The teams are run primarily by sponsorship (Red Bull) or extreme backing from a manufacturer (Ferrari, Mercedes).

These sponsors and manufacturers are running in F1 for advertising and publicity, to the people who are viewing the sport. Without the viewers, the fans there would be no requirement to sponsor, thus there would be no F1 period.

F1 is entertainment, take away the entertainment value and the fans will stop being fans and F1 will cease to exist, its the same in every sport or entertainment event worldwide.

With regards to the dirty air and DRS. Agree that it was frustrating when as you say drivers would catch a car in front and then be unable to pass however the DRS system is a cheap and dirty fix to the problem.

What should be done is to make the cars have cleaner air from the back, much like Indy Cars have done over the years.
 
So I guess that's why the team would want both drivers to finish without taking each other out and hence why team orders exist.

Correct.

If you watch Horner's post-race interview on Sky it was the only thing he talked about. 43 points for the team in the bag was more important to the team than Vettel winning.
 
Agree with what you are saying to a point, but lets look at it this way.

The teams are run primarily by sponsorship (Red Bull) or extreme backing from a manufacturer (Ferrari, Mercedes).

These sponsors and manufacturers are running in F1 for advertising and publicity, to the people who are viewing the sport. Without the viewers, the fans there would be no requirement to sponsor, thus there would be no F1 period.

F1 is entertainment, take away the entertainment value and the fans will stop being fans and F1 will cease to exist, its the same in every sport or entertainment event worldwide.

With regards to the dirty air and DRS. Agree that it was frustrating when as you say drivers would catch a car in front and then be unable to pass however the DRS system is a cheap and dirty fix to the problem.

What should be done is to make the cars have cleaner air from the back, much like Indy Cars have done over the years.

Yes, but having drivers die all the time (even utter ****s like Senna) was also bad for the sport. Having a massively wasteful sport didn't do the old green credentials any good which also put sponsors off.

What we have now is a compromise between speed and sustainability. The old days weren't sustainable in terms of human life, the recent past wasn't sustainable due to spiralling cost and wastefulness.

Reducing the formula to 75% of the current race distances but keeping the same tyres would put us back to the early 2000s where the grid determined the winner in a lot of cases.
 
Yes, but having drivers die all the time (even utter ****s like Senna) was also bad for the sport. Having a massively wasteful sport didn't do the old green credentials any good which also put sponsors off.

What we have now is a compromise between speed and sustainability. The old days weren't sustainable in terms of human life, the recent past wasn't sustainable due to spiralling cost and wastefulness.

Reducing the formula to 75% of the current race distances but keeping the same tyres would put us back to the early 2000s where the grid determined the winner in a lot of cases.

Vehicle design and safety measures have increased 100 fold since Senna lost his life. We haven't had an F1 driver lose their life since then IIRC?

Im not saying we should have 1000bhp turbo monsters with ridiculous aero, and I agree to a point what you are saying about sustainability however as I said, without the fans, there is no F1.
 
Team orders have been and will always be a part of F1 whether they are within the rules or not so there is no point in trying to stop them. The race between the teams was decided by the final pit stop so they were just waiting for the finish line.

The issue is how the sport is perceived by the viewers (and the drivers in Vettel's case). It is a team sport but we want it to be an individual battle. Be thankful it isn't as bad as cycling where there is a team of 4-5 people just trying to get one of their guys to win.
 
Vehicle design and safety measures have increased 100 fold since Senna lost his life. We haven't had an F1 driver lose their life since then IIRC?

Correct. And for all DRZ calls him nasty names, Senna was already pushing for improved safety measures on the morning of the day he died.

As for Vettel: there have been drivers who have broken agreements with their teammates in the past and are still considered great - Prost, Senna and Schumacher among them. But none of them ever broke a team order to do it.

Vettel cost himself a hell of a lot this weekend. Webber is going to fight him tooth and nail now, Red Bull are starting to show impatience with his arrogant disregard for orders as well, and everybody else is going to ask themselves if having him on their team is worth the risk and the hassle.
 
Mark Webber is probably one of the best drivers, and nicest people not to have won a championship and almost always through no fault of his own.
 
Correct. And for all DRZ calls him nasty names, Senna was already pushing for improved safety measures on the morning of the day he died.

Yeah, following Ratzenberger's death.

FWIW, Senna was only a nasty pasty because of his attitude towards overtaking of "I'm coming through and if you disagree we're going to have a massive accident".

The guy was clearly fast but he had no regard for his fellow competitors when racing them. I have little doubt that had he not died he'd have ended up being regarded as Schumacher is now - fast, but a bit of a ****.
 
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