Red Bull issue, F1 rules in general?
- Thread starter Wayn0r
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Man of Honour
Tyres shouldn't be so fragile that putting your foot down rips them to ribbons, and by default there should be a rule where they have to overfill the cars, rather than calculating how much they need to cross the line on fumes. At least drivers would be able to push then without tippy toeing.
Soldato
I had to watch the end of this weekends Indycar while I was waiting for the F1 replay to begin.
I learnt that the drivers have, "push to pass". A limited number per race, not sure of the technology.
There was also only about 12 spectators watching from the side of the track.
I have no issue with team orders. Vettel/webber was one sided Vettel was racing webber wasn't.
Mark Webber is the Jimmy white of F1. The greatest champion that never was
We have team orders in every team sport. Could you imagine football without team orders.
Going back to Schummy If he had won 1 less championship and a couple less races he would be hailed as the best driver F1 has ever known and be almost god like. But he bullied and cheated his way to a couple of extra wins that in hindsight he didnt need.
Mark Webber is the Jimmy white of F1. The greatest champion that never was
We have team orders in every team sport. Could you imagine football without team orders.
Going back to Schummy If he had won 1 less championship and a couple less races he would be hailed as the best driver F1 has ever known and be almost god like. But he bullied and cheated his way to a couple of extra wins that in hindsight he didnt need.
Soldato
Never disobeyed team orders though
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I really dont see the problem with what Vettel did. When you have won 3 world-championships and no end of GPs you can get away with whatever you want in a team. What can RB do exactly? Fire him lol?
While RB have to give the image that they are not happy they are probably secretly glad SB got the extra points. Webber's WC will fizzle and fade as it does every year and if the championship goes down to the wire then it may make all the difference to who gets the crown.
While RB have to give the image that they are not happy they are probably secretly glad SB got the extra points. Webber's WC will fizzle and fade as it does every year and if the championship goes down to the wire then it may make all the difference to who gets the crown.
Agreed. Get rid of DRS and bring in something along the lines of a FIA-spec diffuser, exhaust or both.
You just have to look back to the late-80s/early-90s to see cars following each other pretty darn closely through corners. Then the FIA went the wrong way and reduced mechanical grip with the grooved tyres
meaning that teams had to claw back the downforce from aero. Wasn't the position of the diffuser in relation to the rear axle changed when the 2009 regs came in? This again emphasised the importance of the diffuser and under-car airflow...The problem is engineers don't unlearn what they know. You would need to make some radical changes to the rear end regulations in order to stop them using it to generate downforce. The 2009 rules were designed to drop aero downforce by something like 30%, and within a could have years they had clawed it all back.
There was plans for aero reductions in the 2014 rules, but the teams have already got them reduced in effect before they even come into force.
The exhaust regulations is something the FIA did have a hold on though, and let the team over rule them. The original rules designed to ban EBDs had the exhaust exiting behind the rear axle, but this never got implemented and now coanda exhausts are the buzz word. The 2014 regulations should sort this once and for all though.
There was plans for aero reductions in the 2014 rules, but the teams have already got them reduced in effect before they even come into force.
The exhaust regulations is something the FIA did have a hold on though, and let the team over rule them. The original rules designed to ban EBDs had the exhaust exiting behind the rear axle, but this never got implemented and now coanda exhausts are the buzz word. The 2014 regulations should sort this once and for all though.
The rules are half of the problem, get rid of the comical tyres and bring back fuel stops. So what if overtakes are done via the pitstops it's better than what is effectively a cheat button (DRS), at least the driver has to make up the time on his own merit with pitstops.
The reason people got so fed up with pitstop passes is because of Schumacher, but lets be fair it only worked so well for him because he had a Ferrari which carried more fuel than everyone else whilst still keeping the pace AND they had better tyres, so when everyone else was pitting out of necessity he stayed out on his extra fuel and less worn tyres doing hot laps.
The reason people got so fed up with pitstop passes is because of Schumacher, but lets be fair it only worked so well for him because he had a Ferrari which carried more fuel than everyone else whilst still keeping the pace AND they had better tyres, so when everyone else was pitting out of necessity he stayed out on his extra fuel and less worn tyres doing hot laps.
A quick fix would be to remove the 2 compound requirement. It would open the possibility of fully diverse strategies, like 3 soft stints against 2 hard stints. The current rules forces everyone into broadly the same strategy.
It would also allow teams who run better on one tyre than on others mould the strategy accordingly.
It brings the 1 stop vs 2 stop vs 3 stop excitement of refuelling back, but also keeps the 3 second pitstops. It would also mean the top 10 wouldn't all be forced onto the same strategy.
It would also allow teams who run better on one tyre than on others mould the strategy accordingly.
It brings the 1 stop vs 2 stop vs 3 stop excitement of refuelling back, but also keeps the 3 second pitstops. It would also mean the top 10 wouldn't all be forced onto the same strategy.
Man of Honour
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This, they were banned in the first place for a reason.
Orders to hold position were still made when team orders were banned. RBR would have told their drivers to hold position anyway, as that call had been made before the race even started.
If anything it might have been seen against the rules for them to tell Seb to back off over the radio?
If anything it might have been seen against the rules for them to tell Seb to back off over the radio?
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Deleted member 651465
D
Deleted member 651465
+1
The "2 tyre rule" came in to stop a driver running on the harder compound all race and not stopping. Now that the tyres last all of 10 laps, this would make things exciting.
Imagine a 2 stop hard race vs a 5 stop soft face. Go slow and preserve tyres or go balls deep and stop more often. Obviously, this would mean also changing tyre allocations etc.
Man of Honour
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Problem is now it is too easy to do.
i think team orders should be allowed.
its a team sport and the drivers are employed by the team so they should do what is in the best interest of the team.
telling one driver not to overtake another to finish in formation is the same as a football team winning 3-0 and playing out the rest of the game with possesion. this isnt banned or is there uproar about it.
its a team sport and the drivers are employed by the team so they should do what is in the best interest of the team.
telling one driver not to overtake another to finish in formation is the same as a football team winning 3-0 and playing out the rest of the game with possesion. this isnt banned or is there uproar about it.
Soldato
I think that this early in the season, constructor's points are more valuable; especially when you're pretty much guaranteed a 1-2 finish, regardless of the order of which the drivers are in. Why would you risk losing constructor's points over which driver wants to be the "best"?
Of course drivers are competitive, and want to win, but there comes a point where you have to play the team game. If both drivers were told to race, I think that Vettel would still have got past - perhaps in the same fashion. It was a sucker punch for Webber, but he won't be making that mistake again.
Of course drivers are competitive, and want to win, but there comes a point where you have to play the team game. If both drivers were told to race, I think that Vettel would still have got past - perhaps in the same fashion. It was a sucker punch for Webber, but he won't be making that mistake again.
I'd agree with this! Almost like the 'good old days' of which driver had gone conservative on the Goodyear 'B' compound tyres (usually someone like Prost) and who'd been more daring with the 'C' and 'D' compounds (Mansell/Senna...)
The tyre rules are a hangover from the Bridgestone days and are no longer needed. The requirements to start on your qualifying tyres and then use both compounds should be dropped. It would need a few more tyres allocated, as EVH said, and I think that's the sticking point.
Team orders are allowed, not because the FIA want them, but because they know they are impossible to police. They cannot govern what goes on behind closed doors within teams, so they have decided allowing them is better than pathetically failing at trying to ban them.
Team orders are allowed, not because the FIA want them, but because they know they are impossible to police. They cannot govern what goes on behind closed doors within teams, so they have decided allowing them is better than pathetically failing at trying to ban them.
Soldato
But those "good old days" wouldn't happen now anyway. Back then, with the reliance on mechanical for 70% of your grip meant that using the softer tyre would allow you to go faster than someone on harder tyre, and by enough to allow an extra pit stop. Now with the 90% grip from aero, the difference in lap times between hard and soft would probably not be enough to allow for the extra stop.
Therefore everyone would be on the same strategy anyway, just using one tyre compound rather than two.
Plus you would lose the chance of someone in 11th or 12th coming through on the harder tyres once the top ten have worn their softs out.