Return to 'The Troubles'?

Why was it deemed worthy to debate and change the rules on how often a flag should fly. Such a pathetic thing to create a fuss over in the first place.
 
as a prod and a unionist (with a small u) i really wish (were riots are concerned) we could be more like the garda.
last summer we were at a music festival when a fight broke out in a pub between 2 gangs, next thing we saw was a mini van pulling up with about 6 of the biggest garda I've saw each wielding a baton about 3 foot long, they beat the **** out off every one fighting then locked them all up. and for the rest of the weekend, no more trouble.

now if the psni were allowed to do that the riots would be over in a hour.
 
The irony of this, for me, is that no one would have even noticed or cared about this if it wasn't for the DUP/UUP circulating thousands of leaflets like the one below. The fact that they are provoking this reaction just to score voting points against a progressive, non-sectarian party speaks volumes. They seriously can't care about their own people if they do this. Why didn't they publicise all this during the consultations? So the people could use their words instead of weapons to have their say on it?

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I'll be careful what I say, as in the last Ireland thread we lost Penski RIP, but...

Is it just me, or was it pretty retarded of the council? I'm not an Ireland expert, but I know that if you mention anything to do with being more British or being less British there will be problems. Same with if you mention religion. Whether it's just a really touchy subject, or half the people are looking for any excuse for a fight I don't know, but I can guarantee that if you change anything from the relatively stable status quo there will be problems.

So why did the council do this?

Personally I'm on the 'more British' side, but that's not the point. Things were going relatively smoothly, so why couldn't they just leave it as it was?

Unless the council are absolute muppets and know less about Ireland than I do, I'd be half tempted to bet that they knew it would cause trouble and did it to troll the unionists (knowing that there would be violence, as it would if it were the opposite way round also) and make some naughty unionists aren't all unionists bad headlines...
 
Dumb decision to remover the flag as it matters so little it should have been left up.

BUT the people on the streets aren't political they are just the usual scum that rise to the surface when given an excuse.
 
Clav said:
The irony of this, for me, is that no one would have even noticed or cared about this if it wasn't for the DUP/UUP circulating thousands of leaflets like the one below. The fact that they are provoking this reaction just to score voting points against a progressive, non-sectarian party speaks volumes. They seriously can't care about their own people if they do this. Why didn't they publicise all this during the consultations? So the people could use their words instead of weapons to have their say on it?
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This is what I was saying earlier about political point scoring. The DUP failed to mention that it was Sinn Fein that wanted the complete removal of the flag. Instead they released those fliers blaming the Alliance party, who the DUP had lost seats to. Stirring up people against the Alliance party instead. After all this the DUP will end up getting back the seats they lost to the Alliance party in Belfast.

Many Unionist/Loyalist majority towns and cities around Northern Ireland only fly the flag on designated days and made the switch without problems, such as Lisburn (which did it six years ago). So it can be done, but it was done entirely the wrong way from the start by both Sinn Fein and the DUP in Belfast and for them to play the people off each other like this is disgusting. Everyones anger should be rounded directly on those parties.

Westyfield2 said:
I'll be careful what I say, as in the last Ireland thread we lost Penski RIP, but...

Is it just me, or was it pretty retarded of the council? I'm not an Ireland expert, but I know that if you mention anything to do with being more British or being less British there will be problems. Same with if you mention religion. Whether it's just a really touchy subject, or half the people are looking for any excuse for a fight I don't know, but I can guarantee that if you change anything from the relatively stable status quo there will be problems.

So why did the council do this?

Personally I'm on the 'more British' side, but that's not the point. Things were going relatively smoothly, so why couldn't they just leave it as it was?

Unless the council are absolute muppets and know less about Ireland than I do, I'd be half tempted to bet that they knew it would cause trouble and did it to troll the unionists (knowing that there would be violence, as it would if it were the opposite way round also) and make some naughty unionists aren't all unionists bad headlines...
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Sinn Fein knew exactly what kind of response calling for the removal of the flag would get. For them to call for it's removal entirely just a couple of months after Unionists celebrated the signing of the Ulster Covenant 100 years earlier when ultra-Britishness is fresh in peoples minds was a stroke of genius because Unionists see it as a direct attack on their Britishness by removing the flag over the building that is symbolically more important to Britishness in Northern Ireland than even Stormont (City Hall is where the main signing of the Covenant took place).

For anyone interested, this is a documentary about the signing of the Ulster Covenant that goes some way to explaining what and why. There was celebrations all over Northern Ireland in September for this.

 
jordyGFC said:
But its not 50/50? All Catholics are not nationalist.
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Immigration has also mixed the pot greatly, a lot of the Catholic poputaion increase is from Eastern Europe and places like the Philippians.

busman said:
Just as all protestants are not loyalists, what's your point?
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The point would be that demographic head counting doesn't give a clear picture, N Ireland is changing but I think some people are not grasping how its changing.

Clav said:
The irony of this, for me, is that no one would have even noticed or cared about this if it wasn't for the DUP/UUP circulating thousands of leaflets like the one below. The fact that they are provoking this reaction just to score voting points against a progressive, non-sectarian party speaks volumes. They seriously can't care about their own people if they do this. Why didn't they publicise all this during the consultations? So the people could use their words instead of weapons to have their say on it?

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The Irony would be that its the area that shunned the DUP/UUP and voted Allaince thats been been totally disregarded. Its not progressive to get involved in sectarian politics, its not progressive to undermind national identity, its not progressive to alienate your own voters. The end result will be damaging to the Alliance party.
 
Orcish-Horde said:
The Irony would be that its the area that shunned the DUP/UUP and voted Allaince thats been been totally disregarded. Its not progressive to get involved in sectarian politics, its not progressive to undermind national identity, its not progressive to alienate your own voters. The end result will be damaging to the Alliance party.
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But the Alliance party represent people who are non-sectarian. How can their voters be mad at this? If they vote in 'middle ground/compromise' politicians it doesn't make sense to hate them for taking the middle ground viewpoint. They didn't start this flag debate at the council it was SF.

My point is that DUP and co can't score any voting points against SF it's just not happening. Instead they have manufactured a situation that has brought loyalists out in peaceful protest (which is fine) and chavvy scum out rioting (not fine). They have firmly placed the blame at the feet of the Alliance and will gain votes because of it. In essence they have manipulated this entire situation to make themselves look like the defenders of unionism at the cost of a modern forward looking party.

In the long run who is going to suffer from this unrest the most? It will be the very kids out rioting in the streets who in a few years times will be looking for work in places that have been put off from ever doing business in NI.

Edit: The actual report on this is available on the council website. I've quoted the bit about consultation:

6.2 The consultation process on this EQIA covered a 16 week period ending on 1st October 2012. During the consultation period the Draft EQIA Report was available on the Council’s website together with a questionnaire designed to facilitate the type of responses referred to above. The Council’s Equality Scheme consultees were notified of the availability of the report and invited to comment. A press release was issued to various media outlets, a public advertisement was placed in the local press and an article was included in the September edition of City Matters. In addition two open public meetings were held at the Ulster Hall on 13th September 2012. A staff survey was also conducted to gather views on the current policy and alternative policies.

6.3 Responses were received as follows:
* individual written responses from three organisations (the Equality Commission, the Community Relations Council and the Consular Association of Northern Ireland);
* 879 written responses from members of the public (577 of which were completed questionnaires);
* a petition containing 14,740 signatures;
* comments made by the 3 members of the public and 2 organisations who attended the public meetings;
* completed questionnaires from 1038 members of staff.
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If this is such an attack on Unionist identity why didn't more people speak out about it when they had the chance instead of rioting after the fact? Or more specifically why didn't the DUP urge people to get involved and voice discontent when it would have actually made a difference? Instead of scapegoating the Alliance party afterwards and orchestrating the situation we now find ourselves in to their own gain!
 
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Slyman2k4 said:
Isn't that a typical weekend for the Ardoyne area?
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:rolleyes:


"operation standstill"

http://www.u.tv/News/Flag-protests-planned-for-across-NI/54f55be9-0ac7-40e8-b244-481861cec455

And unsurprisingly the muppets (2 of them at least) holding the flags have them the wrong way up. Clueless? Very much so. *they can't even spell "Northern" on their placard ffs* And i wonder whats gonna happen after these "protests" are over tonight, im sure that has everyone scratching their chins collectively.
 
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You know life right now is hard enough as it is without fighting over weather a flag flies every day of the year or not.

I cant help but feel that what this is about is more about collective venting of anger of multiple reasons.

Its a real shame cause it serves no one in the end :(
 
jordyGFC said:
Yes I only see the ongoing murder campaign against Security Forces. But quite right, that flag must cause as much harm.
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That wouldn't be nationalists, that would be spasticated scum.
I'd happily line them up and shoot them if I knew their names and they would form an orderly queue, then I'd serve my life term knowing I'd done the rest of the population a favour.
 
Might as well stick this in here too;

Northern Irish riots over Union flag as a prysm over politics and deprivation;

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"UK" English riots over shooting as prysm over politics and deprivation*;

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The Irony of being a zealot for a Parliament and Union that cares little about you other than platitudes and soundbites.
 
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