Return to 'The Troubles'?

[pingwing]

It's an incredible over simplification that ignores several hundred years of history, religion and global politics involving many countries from the HRE to France.

Well yeah there is that, was trying to show British as an identity means something completely different in NI to what it means over here more than anything else. (with long and complex reasons why)

To say that it openly annoys half the population simply isn't true and that's what part of the problem is, people just seem to think that the communities of NI are divided up the middle and are at constant loggerheads. There are plenty of people in NI regardless of which community they come from who are happy to get on with their lives and don't really care for the flag as long as they can live a peaceful life.

Well yes there is that, but why should one community be allowed to flag up their symbols more than the other? People are forced to take down their tri colours immediately after st patricks day where ever in the north you live when equivalent protestant symbols (union flags are one example) are left to fly for ages after an event (12th july is the key one as places are "decorated" after it for weeks into August).

The decision to change the flag flying policy reflects the need to finally start properly adhering to all the recommendations of the good friday agreement to work towards a proper peace. Plenty of people (who fall under the nationalist or not interested labels) are massively disillusioned by the peace process because unionism gets away with this nonsense and saying things like "oh why whinge its only a union flag" furthers this dissatisfaction with the peace process.

 

[Mitzy]

It was Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein called for the flag to be brought down entirely. DUP wanted it up continually. Alliance brought the motion to bring it into line with the rest of the UK, striking the balance which DUP and Sinn Fein agreed to.

I stand corrected.

Just doubled checked with Google.

 

[aln]

You did take a side when you said "give them back their country". It was an incredibly ignorant thing to say. Assuming it's all about religion is also incredibly ignorant.

It was said in jest mate.

But yeah, they live there. It's their country no matter which way you want to spin the issue.

 

[Biohazard]

I re-ittirate they did show their disdain at the ballot box. History has shown violence works when you want to be paid attention to in Northern Ireland, because nobody gives a rats ass what happens until it makes the news.

The areas the trouble is in showed their disdain by voting alliance because they feel like the DUP has let them down since the GFA (like I mentioned in earlier posts). It was stupid of them to attack the alliance party anyway, since Sinn Fein called for the removal of the flag completely and the DUP wanted it to fly continually. If it had been left to them two it would have taken forever to resolve. Alliance made a common sense motion to bring it into line with other cities in the UK (even Lisburn flies the flag on designated days).

But like I said, there's more to this than flags and it's just as much to do with what is seen to be continual abandonment by political representatives, et cetera.

You really aren't getting what I am saying.

I know what has happened, this is no excuse for riot civil disorder assault violence and attempted murder.

The grown up, adult modern day way of dealing with a political let down is to protest peacefully and show your disdain at the next polling opportunity. The fact that people feel decieved from the last plesbite is neither here nor there in trying to justify disgusting and embarresing behaviour such as we have witnissed in Northern Ireland over the Union flag.

They should hang their heads in shame.

 

[Jayster]

Well yeah there is that, was trying to show British as an identity means something completely different in NI to what it means over here more than anything else. (with long and complex reasons why)



Well yes there is that, but why should one community be allowed to flag up their symbols more than the other? People are forced to take down their tri colours immediately after st patricks day where ever in the north you live when equivalent protestant symbols (union flags are one example) are left to fly for ages after an event (12th july is the key one as places are "decorated" after it for weeks into August).

The decision to change the flag flying policy reflects the need to finally start properly adhering to all the recommendations of the good friday agreement to work towards a proper peace. Plenty of people (who fall under the nationalist or not interested labels) are massively disillusioned by the peace process because unionism gets away with this nonsense and saying things like "oh why whinge its only a union flag" furthers this dissatisfaction with the peace process.

Areas on both sides are "decorated" all year round. You also have to remember it is the flag of the country.

 

[teaboy5]

Ach there's nothing like a good old Northern Ireland thread in a mostly English forum to bring out the haters.

You have to remember a good number of the people out on the streets fighting with the police couldn't give a dam about the flag, they just want that buzz of a good old riot.

And to be honest, it's just another riot to most people in Northern Ireland which will blow over when they get bored.

And to people stating no other council in the UK etc fly the flag, surly that just shows a complete lack of pride in the country as a whole. We live in the UK and should be proud to fly the flag on any government building. If someone is offended by the flag of the country they live in, they should just not look at it.

Personally it's doesn't bother me at all either way, I have better things to be worrying about.

 

[pingwing]

Areas on both sides are "decorated" all year round. You also have to remember it is the flag of the country.

Only some bits (places I never felt all that safe in either), there are just times it gets very ott (paddys day and "the 12th" are the main two) and as an english man I found it so weird that the left overs from the 12th were left for weeks when paddys stuff was down and in the bin 9am the next day.

Just an annoying inconsistency towards symbolism that should really be addressed.

 

[OhEsEcks]

You really aren't getting what I am saying.

I know what has happened, this is no excuse for riot civil disorder assault violence and attempted murder.

The grown up, adult modern day way of dealing with a political let down is to protest peacefully and show your disdain at the next polling opportunity. The fact that people feel decieved from the last plesbite is neither here nor there in trying to justify disgusting and embarresing behaviour such as we have witnissed in Northern Ireland over the Union flag.

They should hang their heads in shame.

I get what you're saying. I also think it's incredibly idealistic, simplistic and naive to the history and current climate of Northern Ireland.

You can ramble on all day with a holier than thou attitude about what you think people should do about showing their disdain about things. But history in Ireland and Northern Ireland has shown that when you're being ignored and you're angry, violence works. Claiming people should be ashamed for wanting to bring attention to their problems when most people are happy enough to ignore them until they kick off is stupid too.

 

[Mitzy]

Areas on both sides are "decorated" all year round. You also have to remember it is the flag of the country.

To be fair you may get the odd one in green areas but blue areas are every lamppost. Plus the green areas do enter into agreements to not fly flags if its in an interface area and likely to cause tension. As a result of the recent FLEG protests Union Jacks have been put all over interface areas, even outside of several Catholic Primary girls schools. Every year the opposing flag gets burnt on top of a bonfire along with the pope so that they can celebrate their glorious culture.

 

[OhEsEcks]

To be fair you may get the odd one in green areas but blue areas are every lamppost. Plus the green areas do enter into agreements to not fly flags if its in an interface area and likely to cause tension. As a result of the recent FLEG protests Union Jacks have been put all over interface areas, even outside of several Catholic Primary girls schools. Every year the opposing flag gets burnt on top of a bonfire along with the pope so that they can celebrate their glorious culture.

Doesn't sound like you've an agenda of any sort at all.

 

[Mitzy]

I get what you're saying. I also think it's incredibly idealistic, simplistic and naive to the history and current climate of Northern Ireland.

You can ramble on all day with a holier than thou attitude about what you think people should do about showing their disdain about things. But history in Ireland and Northern Ireland has shown that when you're being ignored and you're angry, violence works. Claiming people should be ashamed for wanting to bring attention to their problems when most people are happy enough to ignore them until they kick off is stupid too.

I'm sorry but you're completely wrong.

I live here, these people should hang their heads in shame, they are the lowest scum Belfast has to offer and they shouldn't be listened too, they should be ignored. Unless of course they want to come play politics like the big boys and girls do.

 

[Biohazard]

I get what you're saying. I also think it's incredibly idealistic, simplistic and naive to the history and current climate of Northern Ireland.

You can ramble on all day with a holier than thou attitude about what you think people should do about showing their disdain about things. But history in Ireland and Northern Ireland has shown that when you're being ignored and you're angry, violence works. Claiming people should be ashamed for wanting to bring attention to their problems when most people are happy enough to ignore them until they kick off is stupid too.

If you want to justify it along these lines be my guest, but the Northern Irish problem at the moment is an embarrassment given it is a dispute over a flag.

No one has the right to attempt to take another life; unless you are a disgruntled Irishman. 'Cause it works.

Is this the positive Union?

I said it before; they should all hang their head in shame.

 

[OhEsEcks]

If you want to justify it along these lines be my guest, but the Northern Irish problem at the moment is an embarrassment given it is a dispute over a flag.

No one has the right to attempt to take another life; unless you are a disgruntled Irishman. 'Cause it works.

Is this the positive Union?

I said it before; they should all hang their head in shame.

It's not just about the flag and you continuing to claim it is just shows how clueless you are about the entire thing.

 

[Orcish-Horde]

They can take our fleg, but they'll never take our DLA.

NI does have twice as many disabled people per 1000 than GB. And we thought leper colonies had ceased to exist.

Well the Census says that it is the nationalist/republican areas of N Ireland that has the highest areas of disiblity. I would put that down to the troubles and in the case of Belfast how the IRA dealt with people within their own community. How many yound lads over all them years needs DLA after the IRA shot them in both knees, ankles or ebows?
http://www.nisra.gov.uk/Census/key_stats_bulletin_2011.pdf

 

[Mitzy]

Doesn't sound like you've an agenda of any sort at all.

I certainly do.

I want all the so called proud Protestants and Catholics who like violence to go away.

I am English born to a Scottish father and a Northern Irish mother, raised in Belfast from 4 in mixed communities as Atheist. You may not like what I say or how I say it but the reality is all there.

 

[Biohazard]

It's not just about the flag and you continuing to claim it is just shows how clueless you are about the entire thing.

The flag is symbolic of the wider issues and national identities I realise this; it's a flag nonetheless.

Clueless? Says the man trying to justify murder for political ends.

 

[cu3ed]

Well played Sinn Fein....well played.

Their was not a single complaint filed to Stormont about the flag, till Sinn Fein made a deal out of it, then they moved the vote date as they knew this would cause Unionism the most damage.

Hook...line..sinker.

Also...Sinn Fein are not anymore about the bread and butter politics for the Republican or Nationalist in Northern Ireland, cause they fail every year at that, they are now about coming up with diversions problems that you ( a republican) should be annoyed about, that you where not aware of before.

 

[OhEsEcks]

I'm sorry but you're completely wrong.

I live here, these people should hang their heads in shame, they are the lowest scum Belfast has to offer and they shouldn't be listened too, they should be ignored. Unless of course they want to come play politics like the big boys and girls do.

I live here too and while I don't agree with their methods, claiming they should be ashamed and they are scum is middle class snobbery (which the OCUK forums are well known for) and general ignorance about the entire situation.

As for wanting to play politics like the big boys and girls do, do you mean like Sinn Fein who kicked the entire thing off in the first place by calling for the complete removal of the flag?

 

[cu3ed]

Clueless? Says the man trying to justify murder for political ends.

It worked for the head members of the IRA.

 

[OhEsEcks]

The flag is symbolic of the wider issues and national identities I realise this; it's a flag nonetheless.

Clueless? Says the man trying to justify murder for political ends.

I'm trying to justify murder? Nice ad hominem.