Return to 'The Troubles'?

jordyGFC said:
You talk pure ****. A Republican could walk into a loyalist area and nothing would be said. If a loyalist walked into a republican area I doubt hed get out on his feet.
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Cracking you called me delusional earlier :D

Grow up.
 
Mitzy said:
I agree.

But what of the people in the middle who don't give a rats behind about the past and just want to get on with things?
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They're going to have to stop being so self centred and realise that there are others on the fringes that need to be brought in or we're going to fix nothing.
 
Orcish-Horde said:
The majority of who? 50% of the population don't vote, if one looks at the city council the flag was removed to the democratic wish of 30% of the Belfast population at best. Given that Alliance draw heavily from Unionist population, its clear to see that they totally misread their electorate. Not every one want to protest that doesn't mean they dont support the issue.
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I take your point about misreading their electorate but the electorate voted for a progressive party, what did they expect?

We will have to wait and see what happens in the next elections although it should be clear that there is no going back, that Union Jack will only be flown on designated days. This is the future.
 
They should just fly the Ulster Banner above city hall given that most of the sport organisations recognises it as Northern Ireland's flag.
 
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ULP said:
Always a head scratcher that one, I'm a nationalist (whom incidentally has never voted nor has any desire to) And by default I'm a murderer supporter. They're arguments are so futile half the time that it requires no response.
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Do you support any murderers?
 
OhEsEcks said:
They're going to have to stop being so self centred and realise that there are others on the fringes that need to be brought in or we're going to fix nothing.
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The fringe are in no position to make demands the way they have been, if they want to be included then the must be inclusive.
 
pingwing said:
That argument only works if NI British and Protestantism as identities didn't stoop to the levels you have identified. The prepared for peace, ready for war murals for example are pathetic. Same goes for the william of orange stuff or the continued orange order nonsense. Nothing but flagrant antagonism that have nothing to do with being British and everything to do with putting the finger to nationalist NI.

NI British get on their high horse so much about how nationalist NI is all about celebrating murderers and so on but have absolutely no grasp of the irony of their own position.



At least its not just me that finds the area weird and creepy... (wish the gf didn't still live there). Ardboe is a nightmare, most of her family live in the next village over and after 3 years I still feel very uncomfortable there alone. Creepy area and a strange reflection of how NI can be.

Omagh seemed fairly nice on the odd visit there. Never at a big or busy time but no one gave me that "your english what are you doing here" stare.
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Ahh.

The "lodge".

THE Orange Order in Scotland is threatening to transform itself into a Protestant paramilitary organisation if the SNP ever win a mandate for Scottish independence.
In a taped interview with the Sunday Herald, Jack Ramsay, the Grand Secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland, claimed Orangemen who found themselves threatened with life in an independent Scotland would turn into an underground force, which would not rule out a recourse to arms, in a bid to preserve their Britishness.

When asked what would happen if Scotland moved to sever ties with the union, Ramsay said: 'The Orange Order would become a paramilitary force, if you like.'

He is now facing calls for a police inquiry into the statement, following a barrage of criticism from the Scottish National Party and the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland that his comments may inflame sectarian tension in the run-up to the annual Twelfth of July celebrations in Ulster and Scotland.

Ramsay said the prospect of an independent Scotland would see the Orange Order become like 'a spy behind enemy lines' and turn into a rallying point for those bitterly opposed to independence. The SNP was a 'threat to Scotland and Britain,' he added. 'If people became disenchanted with Labour and turned to the SNP, the nationalists would start screaming that they have a mandate for separatism. That would be very dangerous.'

'We would find ourselves in difficulties,' he added. 'If that was the case I think we'd end up a proscribed organisation. The people who would join us then would not be those who would have joined if the Orange Order was legal.'

The likelihood of the Orange Order, which has around 50,000 members, being banned in the event of it turning to paramilitary activity did not seem to worry Ramsay. 'If you proscribe an organisation, you strengthen it', he said.

When asked a second time if his reference to a ''paramilitary organisation'' suggested terrorism, Ramsay said: 'It obviously implies a recourse to arms'. Asked a third time, he said he would prefer the description 'a more militant organisation''. He added: ''If we were separated from the UK, we would have a caucus of people who would be pro the union. The logical development of that would obviously mean some form of confrontation. If we were proscribed we would go underground, and anything that's underground surfaces.'

Ramsay emphasised that no violence was acceptable at the moment apart from actions taken by the RUC and the army, who he said 'had a licence to kill and acted with the legitimacy of the British state'.

Ironically, the sabre-rattling comes as the Orange Order in Scotland is planning to hire public relations consultants to overhaul its image.

The SNP's deputy leader and shadow justice minister Roseanna Cunningham savaged Ramsay and the Orange Order for the comments. She said: 'This is an extraordinary statement. Ramsay has done more in one sentence to destroy his organisation than years of political criticism ever could. Independence in Scotland will only come through the democratic process. To suggest that an organisation would go down the road towards terrorism if it was opposed to independence is unbelievable. Obviously this statement will have to be examined closely by the authorities to see if making these claims is a criminal offence.' Police sources said they would look at Ramsay's statement in the light of the Terrorism Act 2000.

Cunningham added: 'Given that everyone, including the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, has been very relaxed about the activities of the Orange Order, it is astonishing that this organisation can be so intolerant and threatening itself.'

Ramsay also defended Orangemen who joined paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland and Scotland in the early 1970s, at the height of the Troubles. 'In those days men were joining paramilitary organisations for the right reasons. The UDA (Ulster Defence Association), when it started, was required for defence purposes from attacks on Protestant people from the IRA.

'A number of young men empathised with that and joined loyalist organisations. They weren't taking to the streets to murder people then -- now it's very different. Back then we were sympathetic to the problems faced by the Protestant community in Ulster. Today, it's gone to hell.'

He also revealed that at least one Scottish Orange Order member was a senior commander in a loyalist paramilitary organisation. 'He was encouraging young lads to join up, and then when they wanted out they were subjected to some pretty brutal treatment. It was then, in 1976, that we decided that we couldn't have any association or direct contact with paramilitaries.'

Ramsay said Catholic claims of discrimination in Scotland were nonsense. 'The Labour Party is filled with Catholic MPs and MSPs, and we haven't had a Protestant Lord Provost in Glasgow for nearly 20 years, so how can we talk about discrimination?'

In a bid to overhaul the disastrous public image of the Order, Ramsay has embarked on a three-part plan to convince the public that the organisation is not bigoted and violent. He has already consulted politicians including Donald Gorrie, who wants to see legislation outlawing sectarian abuse, and plans to talk to journalists about the reasons for the Order being constantly attacked in the press.

His final stage will be the hiring of PR consultants . 'Every organisation has PR people now and we realise we need one as well,' he said.

Peter Kearney, the Catholic Church in Scotland's official spokesman, said: 'Jack Ramsay's comments are utterly unbelievable. There is nothing to stop people defending their Britishness legally. Even the Boers in South Africa defend apartheid within legal boundaries.

'Orangemen are entitled to freedom of expression, but it often comes over as sectarian rhetoric and triumphalism to Roman Catholics and other Scottish people. It is this that demeans the organisation.'
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This is the mentallity of this ancient Pro-Union organisations; they are a danger to civil society. These comments were a couple of years after devolution. Moaning about the possibility of becoming outcast and threatening to attack society for it.

:rolleyes:
 
jordyGFC said:
You talk pure ****. A Republican could walk into a loyalist area and nothing would be said. If a loyalist walked into a republican area I doubt hed get out on his feet.
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You're being idiotic. I'm a protestant and there's certain places I won't go after a certain time of night incase I get mistook for being a catholic. I remember in 2002 a catholic joyrider was beaten and crucified to a fence. While republicans would shoot you in both knees, that's the kind of thuggery you expect coming out of loyalist areas.
 
OhEsEcks said:
Both sides are as bad as each other was my point.
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Phew! Was getting worried.

All it needs is one side to stop for the other to then look stupid. Unionism looks very silly to the mainland anyway so I stand by they need to give it up asap.


Biohazard said:
Ahh.

The "lodge".

This is the mentallity of this ancient Pro-Union organisations; they are a danger to civil society. These comments were a couple of years after devolution. Moaning about the possibility of becoming outcast and threatening to attack society for it.

:rolleyes:
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Ah the lodge. This always makes me laugh, did you know that you have to ride a goat naked round a field as part of your entry to it? Always pictured Ian Paisley having to do this in his youth to make sure what ever he had to was really "derp derp deep".

Should have been cast out as a terrorist organisation the day they woke me up on a sunday marching down my street! I'm english! I don't cause trouble! Though I felt much more like it when I saw them trumpiting it about. Turns out having a police escort is to stop people having an objection to them when it happens. Highly annoying they haven't gone away yet.
 
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jordyGFC said:
You have no facts to back up any of these pints what so ever. Most people are not on benefits. I believe you are thinking about ardoyne on the 12th of July rioting.
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No pints mate, no. You sure about the benefits, can't imagine anyone asking for the day off for a wee riot, can you?

The rioting in Ardoyne, again thugs, absolute scum should be locked up, indeed some of them were.
 
OhEsEcks said:
You're being idiotic. I'm a protestant and there's certain places I won't go after a certain time of night incase I get mistook for being a catholic. I remember in 2002 a catholic joyrider was beaten and crucified to a fence. While republicans would shoot you in both knees, that's the kind of thuggery you expect coming out of loyalist areas.
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TBH I see you as one of the people who do nothing to further this country. You sit on the fence and dont support or disagree with anyone and probably vote alliance if you vote at all.
 
OhEsEcks said:
You're being idiotic. I'm a protestant and there's certain places I won't go after a certain time of night incase I get mistook for being a catholic. I remember in 2002 a catholic joyrider was beaten and crucified to a fence. While republicans would shoot you in both knees, that's the kind of thuggery you expect coming out of loyalist areas.
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That incident was in South Belfast close to Dunmurry, forget the name of the estate. Insane.
 
Mitzy said:
No pints mate, no. You sure about the benefits, can't imagine anyone asking for the day off for a wee riot, can you?

The rioting in Ardoyne, again thugs, absolute scum should be locked up, indeed some of them were.
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Unless these people work nightshift, I dont see how they would need to ask for the day off?
 
jordyGFC said:
TBH I see you as one of the people who do nothing to further this country. You sit on the fence and dont support or disagree with anyone and probably vote alliance if you vote at all.
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You do realise this man has been providing highly intelligent responses in support of Unionism as a whole, showing sympathy for those in the areas that have been suffering the rioting?

I don't agree with a fair proportion of his opinions but he's put out a number of facts and I certainly wouldn't insult him for it. You on the other hand only exemplify the problems within Belfast, namely uneducated sectarian young people.
 
jordyGFC said:
TBH I see you as one of the people who do nothing to further this country. You sit on the fence and dont support or disagree with anyone and probably vote alliance if you vote at all.
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So voting for terrorists is better than voting for people who want to take politics away from an arbitrary argument of the constitutional status of 6 counties is better? :rolleyes:

Sometimes the voter apathy party looks like a brilliant idea.


ULP said:
Always a head scratcher that one, I'm a nationalist (whom incidentally has never voted nor has any desire to) And by default I'm a murderer supporter. They're arguments are so futile half the time that it requires no response.
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It has troubled me meeting unionists who have swept under the carpet all loyalist paramilitary activity. To a point of out right denial of UVF activity post 1914. Such a weird interpretation of being British.
 
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