Russian airliner missing over Egypt

Werewolf said:
Or

9/11
NORAD were conducting fairly normal drills.
The bigger reason for the lack of initial response was that no one had expected anything like it to happen, and the likes of the Air Force had not been concerned with air attacks happening within the US without them passing the borders (internally American air security was light, there had never been a real need for interceptors to be armed to deal with flights originating inside the border).

London Tube.
It was IIRC a small scale training excercise for management of one department, something done routinely.
On virtually any day of the year government departments, emergency services, security services, large public bodies such as TFL or the Nuclear industry will be running training drills for one contingency or another. You only ever hear about them if they're really large scale (IE hundreds of people involved in a public area such as the combined major incident drills the Police, Ambulance and Fire services run a couple of times a year), or something happens on that day that the CT's can latch onto.

U.S.S. Liberty.
Again, Israel, a country effectively in a near constant state of war readiness running naval drills...Not exactly unusual, especially in a country where virtually everyone is expected to be part of the armed forces thus they're constantly training up new personal who need to be drilled, trained and tested in exercises to allow evaluation of them individually and as teams.

Sinai air crash.
Again it's a smallish area, and the Israelis will likely be doing some form of exercises most days for training, they also do a lot of combined ones with personal and equipment from other countries (partly because they both buy and sell military equipment to a lot of other countries which means they need to evaluate their equipment, personal and tactics).
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Using facts and logic in GD?

It'll never catch on...
 
Boycey0211 said:
That was human error not a malfunction.
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The malfunctioning Patriot misidentified the Tornado as an incoming Air to Surface missile targeting the Patriot. The operators were able to get confirmation from another working Patriot that the Tornado was a friendly but by this point the first Patriot had gone into panic mode and self launched a missile which the operators were unable to recall/abort.

Overall it was a combination of insufficient operator training, a malfunction of the Patriots target identification, and poor design (no way to abort a launched missile).

NB: The USAF attempted to claim that the Tornados IFF system had malfunctioned causing the incident, however the ability of the second patriot to correctly identify the Tornado refutes this.
 
ubersonic said:
The F-16's sent after United Airlines Flight 93 (the fourth plane which crashed near Pittsburgh after the passengers zerg rushed the hijackers) were actually launched unarmed due to not having time to fit missiles. The pilots planned to ram the tail and cockpit respectively but got recalled after the plane went down.
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Aye that's what I was sort of referring to.

Most reasonably large countries before 9/11 didn't keep armed alert aircraft to deal with threats that originated within the country, as the risks involved in having an armed "ready" interceptor on the runway are far higher than having a ready aircraft, and the weapons locked away in a nearby bunker, and prior to 9/11 it was always assumed that such threats would be spotted by the perimeter air defence radar and dealt with by aircraft positioned at the relevant borders (I don't think NY was one of those border areas).

The U.S. nearly lost a carrier when one of their ready aircraft suffered an electrical problem at one point (I think it was the 60's), and I think there are fairly serious issues with leaving a lot of missiles exposed to the sun for too long.

It takes a certain amount of balls and determination to take your aircraft up knowing that if it comes to it the only way you'll be able to defend your country is by ramming another aircraft.
 
Werewolf said:
I don't think NORAD ever had armed aircraft in that part of the country on rapid deployment status.

They had some jets that could be scrambled within a few minutes, and were scrambled when they realised something was up, but they were not armed as it was not policy for them to be armed.
Something to do with the risks of having an armed and fuelled fighter/interceptor on the runway being far too high* given that they never expected an attack from an aircraft that had not got to pass the borders (and thus give them time to prep an aircraft).


*There have been some very nasty incidents resulting from things like missiles left on aircraft at a high readiness state, so unless they're either at a state of war, or operationally required (such as the ready fighters on a carrier) they don't do it.
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Surely they'd keep cannons loaded at least?
 
prior to 9/11 only the RAF really kept a number of QRA force aircraft - the RAF have a pair at lossiemouth (north) and at conningsby (south)(# - also have been ay leuchers and Northolt during 2012.

they are a pair of typhoons armed with 4 amraam , 2x asraam , 2 x 2000 litre drops tanks (filled) and the gun - with a ready crew 24/7/52.

IIRC they are on alert 5 - that's 5 minutes from the alarm sounding to being at full afterburner and in the air `mach busting` to what ever sent them up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29823148

The USA never had that.
 
Harlequin said:
prior to 9/11 only the RAF really kept a number of QRA force aircraft - the RAF have a pair at lossiemouth (north) and at conningsby (south)(# - also have been ay leuchers and Northolt during 2012.

they are a pair of typhoons armed with 4 amraam , 2x asraam , 2 x 2000 litre drops tanks (filled) and the gun - with a ready crew 24/7/52.

IIRC they are on alert 5 - that's 5 minutes from the alarm sounding to being at full afterburner and in the air `mach busting` to what ever sent them up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29823148

The USA never had that.
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Nonesense. The US had that in the 80s.
 
Dimple said:
Oulton has gone quiet
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He's too busy looking through the B&Q catalogue.

Originally Posted by oulton
OK - Just keep this in mind though:

9/11: Norad failed because USAF carried out biggest ever terrorism drills on day of attack.
London Tube bombings: UK Met were carrying out terrorist drills on day of attack.
USS Liberty attack: Israel carrying of Navy drills on day the Liberty Sunk.
Sinai air disaster: Israeli coalition carryout biggest ever AF drills 40 miles away from Metrojet crash site.
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Slight obsession there.
 
ubersonic said:
The malfunctioning Patriot misidentified the Tornado as an incoming Air to Surface missile targeting the Patriot. The operators were able to get confirmation from another working Patriot that the Tornado was a friendly but by this point the first Patriot had gone into panic mode and self launched a missile which the operators were unable to recall/abort.

Overall it was a combination of insufficient operator training, a malfunction of the Patriots target identification, and poor design (no way to abort a launched missile).

NB: The USAF attempted to claim that the Tornados IFF system had malfunctioned causing the incident, however the ability of the second patriot to correctly identify the Tornado refutes this.
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This is all wrong, no idea where you got any of that information from.

It was the operator who panicked.
 
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