Russian SU-24 - Shot Down by Turkey

Dis86 said:
Lol. So a soldier from another country invades yours but you don't defend yourself because 'hey, he's just doing his job!'.

That has to be one of the most idiotic statements I've ever heard on here.
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So Pakistan should be currently attacking the UK and the USA because we've been conducting lethal strikes in their country without their permission for years now.


Would you support their military retaliation or when we invade a countries airspace then actually bomb their civilians and kill them is it OK?
 
dowie said:
no the whole point is it wasn't posing a threat and was shot over Syrian territory... at best it skimmed Turkish territory very briefly if we believe the Turks... if we believe the Russians it didn't even enter it. There was no threat from it either way... you need to think.
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No. You need to engage your brain. It is an active war zone. An unidentified target is approaching your territory. You tell it repeatedly to turn back. It enters.

That is an act of aggression. You don't know what the intent of that target is. You have a split second to make judgement, shoot or be shot. Three years ago a Syrian jet shot down a Turkish plane. Inside turkey. Tell me how the pilot was meant to know the targets weren't a threat?

You really can't quite grasp conflict, that's evident.
 
ultralaser said:
Greece are a member of NATO so not sure how your point quite fits in here. It is a deliberate action, a deliberate action to stop the Russian airforce from entering sovereign airspace. When you enter another nations airspace it's their call on how they act and response. Russia have pushed Turkey for a while on this, and the Turks lost their patience and shot one of their aircraft down. Personally I just can't see the big issue here. Clearly I'm missing something :(
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Shooting down a plane is a big issue, if you're missing that then there isn't much more to attempt to explain to you on that front.
 
Tefal said:
Well they just got their public reason to attack the fsa fully now haven't they.
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They have been any way. What's the difference? Go look at the figures for the targets of Russian air strikes. They're even available on Wikipedia!
 
Tefal said:
So Pakistan should be currently attacking the UK and the USA because we've been conducting lethal strikes in their country without their permission for years now.


Would you support their military retaliation or when we invade a countries airspace then actually bomb their civilians and kill them is it OK?
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Where's the link for the uk please?

The us have, yes. Not against sovereign Pakistani targets however. Granted civilians have been killed and Pakistan has every right to feel aggrieved however they kinda struggle when they know that the reason for the strikes is because their country is a haven for the taliban because they're unable and in some cases unwilling to police their own borders.
 
dowie said:
Shooting down a plane is a big issue, if you're missing that then there isn't much more to attempt to explain to you on that front.
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I do understand that an aircraft has been shot down, but I don't understand why the Russian aircraft crossed into Turkish airspace without approval.
 
Dis86 said:
No. You need to engage your brain. It is an active war zone. An unidentified target is approaching your territory. You tell it repeatedly to turn back. It enters.

That is an act of aggression. You don't know what the intent of that target is. You have a split second to make judgement, shoot or be shot. Three years ago a Syrian jet shot down a Turkish plane. Inside turkey. Tell me how the pilot was meant to know the targets weren't a threat?
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because I'd hope the pilot is capable of thinking logically - if we believe the Turkish account it has skimmed a tiny strip of their territory, if we believe the Russians it didn't even do that... either way its not heading for them.

You'll likely find they're warning any planes that get close to them... Russia are attacking more than just ISIS, they're attacking Turkish backed groups close to the Turkish border... Turkey doesn't like that. If you engaged your brain as you're telling me to you might realise this is very unlikely to be some simple act of self defence, that sort of claim is very dubious - this is Turkey escalating things because they're unhappy with what Russia is doing on their borders.

You really can't quite grasp conflict, that's evident.
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Have you ever served in a conflict zone?
 
ultralaser said:
I do understand that an aircraft has been shot down, but I don't understand why the Russian aircraft crossed into Turkish airspace without approval.
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we don't know that it has - one side has claimed it has one side has claimed it hasn't..

the side that claims it has only shows that at best it skimmed a small strip of territory that sticks out into Syria

it looks like a big overreaction either way
 
dowie said:
because I'd hope the pilot is capable of thinking logically - if we believe the Turkish account it has skimmed a tiny strip of their territory, if we believe the Russians it didn't even do that... either way its not heading for them.

You'll likely find they're warning any planes that get close to them... Russia are attacking more than just ISIS, they're attacking Turkish backed groups close to the Turkish border... Turkey doesn't like that. If you engaged your brain as you're telling me to you might realise this is very unlikely to be some simple act of self defence, that sort of claim is very dubious - this is Turkey escalating things because they're unhappy with what Russia is doing on their borders.



Have you ever served in a conflict zone?
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Let's play a game.

You're in a war zone. You spot something moving towards you. You ask it to identify itself and its intent.

It doesn't.

You ask it again.

It doesn't.

It keeps getting closer.

You ask it another time and another. It still doesn't respond and gets closer.

Do you;

A, keep asking until you get killed by it?

B, shoot first in self defence?
 
Yes

your scenario is irrelevant though - the plane wasn't heading towards the Turkish plane...

and again Russia is actively bombing targets along the Turkish border... Russian planes will be getting warnings all the time... Turkey doesn't much like what the Russians are doing right next to their border

you don't actually know that the plane crossed into Turkish airspace... at best it only flew over a small strip of it and was hit after the event
 
dowie said:
Yes

your scenario is irrelevant though - the plane wasn't heading towards the Turkish plane...
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No it's not.

From you're logic you're dead. Simple as. Like the unfortunate Turkish pilots in 2012 who were shot down by a Syrian jet. The incident which caused the current Turkish air defence rules.
 
Also for your education you don't need to head towards a plane to shoot it down.

Something I know because that was my job.
 
dowie said:
we don't know that it has - one side has claimed it has one side has claimed it hasn't..

the side that claims it has only shows that at best it skimmed a small strip of territory that sticks out into Syria

it looks like a big overreaction either way
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Ah sorry I thought it was well known the Russian aircraft had entered Turkish airspace. My bad if that's not the case.

As said before this isn's the first time Russia and Turkey have had issues about airspace, I think it was only three weeks ago that the Turks had accused the Russians of invading their airspace, IIRC they went to the UN on that occasion as well. My own opinion is that if the Russians entered Turkish airspace they can't be surprised they got an aircraft shot down. If it was on the other foot and the Russians "skimmed a small strip" of Gibraltar I'd expect a full response from our RAF.

I'm not expert so I'll let you guys continue to discuss
 
Dis86 said:
No it's not.

From you're logic you're dead. Simple as. Like the unfortunate Turkish pilots in 2012 who were shot down by a Syrian jet. The incident which caused the current Turkish air defence rules.
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no, from my logic you avoid an international incident, simple as... there was no self defence issue in this case

Russian planes are actively operating in that region - what difference does skimming a tiny strip of land make from a self defence perspective - assuming they even did skim that bit of Turkish land? It makes bugger all difference... though it provides a dubious excuse to down a plane.
 
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dowie said:
no, from my logic you avoid an international incident, simple as... there was no self defence issue in this case
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How do you know that? How do you know the Russian planes weren't targeting Turkish targets?

The simple fact is, you don't. You are assuming.

In jet combat you cannot assume. If you hesitate you die. Again like the Turkish pilots in 2012.
 
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