Russian SU-24 - Shot Down by Turkey

Longbow · 25 Nov 2015 at 12:08

StriderX said:
We don't shoot them down though, just wait until they start flying their strategics near the border fully laden.

Yes, but they never enter UK airspace.

Rimsy said:
Is this comment based on you looking at a map and guessing how long it would take a jet to cover that distance?

Yes.

itchy said:
You do know how fast jets fly???

At 500mph you doing over 8 miles per minute. That plane shot down was capable of doing about 3 times that speed.

Turkey have chased that plane and shot it down, for the whole 17 seconds it intruded there air space.

Madness.

Strife212 said:
No it doesn't, Turkey's official statement to NATO said the plane was in Turkish Airspace for exactly 17 seconds.

Where did I state that it was in their territory longer than 17 seconds?

I said both radar images (Russian and Turkish) show the jet near the border covering a distance that would take longer than 35 seconds. Overlaying the image in Google Earth shows the distance covered is 35+ miles, within 10miles of the border. Which is enough time for Turkey to provide the warnings.

MeEsH BaKkA · 25 Nov 2015 at 12:16

Just an observation, I would assume even an old aircraft like he su24 would be lit up like a Christmas tree with warnings going off like mad when they have a radar lock, and I would assume there was a way of telling if a weapon had been launched. So with all of that and the alleged warnings from Turkish pilots WTH was the plane still in cruise config rather than trying to run I.e wings not swept back?

How likely is it that the crew had no idea they were about to be shot down? I guess we'll find eventually now the pilot has been recovered but I suppose neither side can be fully trusted with what they say

do_ron_ron · 25 Nov 2015 at 12:34

According to the BBC report Turkey has its own fundamentalist army in that part of Syria. Just what is needed, another shade of fundamentalism to add to the mix. Russia was bombing these fundamentalists along with others and Turkey took the hump and decided to shoot down one of Russia's jets.

That makes more sense than the drivel put out the official Govts.

dowie · 25 Nov 2015 at 12:38

MeEsH BaKkA said:
Just an observation, I would assume even an old aircraft like he su24 would be lit up like a Christmas tree with warnings going off like mad when they have a radar lock, and I would assume there was a way of telling if a weapon had been launched. So with all of that and the alleged warnings from Turkish pilots WTH was the plane still in cruise config rather than trying to run I.e wings not swept back?

How likely is it that the crew had no idea they were about to be shot down? I guess we'll find eventually now the pilot has been recovered but I suppose neither side can be fully trusted with what they say

they're regularly operating close to turkey as they're attacking rebels in that area... they probably get warnings on just about every sortie they take part in - I doubt they expected to be shot down

whether they skimmed a bit of Turkish territory for a few seconds is disputed after all - this was more a political act than a pure defensive act on the part of Turkey

Stretch · 25 Nov 2015 at 12:53

Tuppy_Glossop said:
This article tries to explain the two nations' positions

xdcx · 25 Nov 2015 at 13:38

Looks legit!

Daily Mail would roll with that on the front page.

Cosimo · 25 Nov 2015 at 13:49

Stretch said:
[/QUOTE]

Job offer from RTL coming your way.

Felon · 25 Nov 2015 at 14:53

MeEsH BaKkA said:
Just an observation, I would assume even an old aircraft like he su24 would be lit up like a Christmas tree with warnings going off like mad when they have a radar lock, and I would assume there was a way of telling if a weapon had been launched. So with all of that and the alleged warnings from Turkish pilots WTH was the plane still in cruise config rather than trying to run I.e wings not swept back?

How likely is it that the crew had no idea they were about to be shot down? I guess we'll find eventually now the pilot has been recovered but I suppose neither side can be fully trusted with what they say

Most combat jets have systems to detect when they're being pinged by radar/IR/whatever by a hostile thing, such as an enemy aircraft or SAM, and further systems to detect a rocket plume (missile launch) at which point they'll use chaff or flares, combined with specific manoeuvres to try and shake the missile.

So yeah - they'd almost certainly have known that a missile had been launched against them,

Rroff · 25 Nov 2015 at 14:57

Screeeech said:
Most combat jets have systems to detect when they're being pinged by radar/IR/whatever by a hostile thing, such as an enemy aircraft or SAM, and further systems to detect a rocket plume (missile launch) at which point they'll use chaff or flares, combined with specific manoeuvres to try and shake the missile.

So yeah - they'd almost certainly have known that a missile had been launched against them,

The apparently rescued pilot seems to be claiming they had no warnings and were downed by AA (cannon or similar not missile) fire from the ground.

Felon · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:04

Rroff said:
The apparently rescued pilot seems to be claiming they had no warnings and were down by AA (cannon or similar not missile) fire from the ground.

Interesting, apparently they were at 6000 meters (20k feet), which is far far beyond the range of any AAA, most AAA tends to be useless at anything more than 5000-7000 feet, and even more so against fast jets.

An F16 wouldn't have any problem whatsoever taking out an SU24, bearing in mind the Turks have shown details of the incident to Nato, (who agree with them, somewhat predictably) including all the warnings - it wouldn't surprise me if the F16s had been tailing them for a while, and simply launched an air to air missile at them the moment they were inside Turkish airspace..

Longbow · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:10

Screeeech said:
it wouldn't surprise me if the F16s had been tailing them for a while, and simply launched an air to air missile at them the moment they were inside Turkish airspace..

Not tailing as in from behind, but it was airborne and flying near the border on guard, fairly normal behaviour given how close the Russian aircraft were.

Tuppy_Glossop · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:10

My guess is that the MM041 track on Turkey's radar image is the F-16.

dowie · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:16

Screeeech said:
An F16 wouldn't have any problem whatsoever taking out an SU24, bearing in mind the Turks have shown details of the incident to Nato, (who agree with them, somewhat predictably) including all the warnings - it wouldn't surprise me if the F16s had been tailing them for a while, and simply launched an air to air missile at them the moment they were inside Turkish airspace..

well since, if we believe the Turkish account, they were only inside their airspace for a few seconds then yes, they've pretty much done that

Rroff · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:17

Screeeech said:
Interesting, apparently they were at 6000 meters (20k feet), which is far far beyond the range of any AAA, most AAA tends to be useless at anything more than 5000-7000 feet, and even more so against fast jets.

An F16 wouldn't have any problem whatsoever taking out an SU24, bearing in mind the Turks have shown details of the incident to Nato, (who agree with them, somewhat predictably) including all the warnings - it wouldn't surprise me if the F16s had been tailing them for a while, and simply launched an air to air missile at them the moment they were inside Turkish airspace..

In the "fog of war" its possible (and infact very likely if they were cruising or on a predictable heading i.e. attack run) they were downed by the main cannon on an F16 and mistaken for ground fire - would also likely negate any lockons, etc.

While the majority of ground AA platforms used by Turkey have an effective altitude of 4000m or less and probably unable to hit a fast jet they do still have some based on the M51 that co-incidentally have a max effective altitude of exactly 6km (and on paper capable of tracking an SU24 with ease).

Given that there has been some friction lately over that issues in the area it wouldn't be unusual if Turkey had moved up equipment capable of dealing with SU24s, etc.

EDIT: No idea what they have/don't have today but someone I know who served in the Turkish army says they'd decommissioned all the long range gun based AA for missiles by the time he left.

Mynight · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:23

Unconfirmed Russian radar image;

cainer · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:38

Felon · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:42

Rroff said:
In the "fog of war" its possible (and infact very likely if they were cruising or on a predictable heading i.e. attack run) they were downed by the main cannon on an F16 and mistaken for ground fire - would also likely negate any lockons, etc.

While the majority of ground AA platforms used by Turkey have an effective altitude of 4000m or less and probably unable to hit a fast jet they do still have some based on the M51 that co-incidentally have a max effective altitude of exactly 6km (and on paper capable of tracking an SU24 with ease).

Given that there has been some friction lately over that issues in the area it wouldn't be unusual if Turkey had moved up equipment capable of dealing with SU24s, etc.

I'd be beyond amazed, if it was downed by AAA.

Also, consider the source of information here - both parties agree that the SU24 was taken down by Turkey - who say they shot it down with an air to air missile by an F16, why would they lie? Turkey have scrambled F16s dozens of times, in response to Russian planes violating their airspace - it seems like a pretty conclusive chain of events that seems to add up.

Then consider that Russia is always telling lies, and is known for being economical with the truth, I'd bet that the surviving pilot is simply claiming or being forced to claim that he had no warnings, to make it look like an unprovoked attack and to make Turkey look like an over-reactive aggressor.

snips86x · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:42

MadMouse101 · 25 Nov 2015 at 15:56

Cosimo · 25 Nov 2015 at 16:07

Mynight said:
Unconfirmed Russian radar image;

Ah, the Zhuk1-Finger-F system.