How does that equate with military ineffectiveness?
Russian SU-24 - Shot Down by Turkey
- Thread starter Korsun
- Start date
How does that equate with military ineffectiveness?
Soldato
For a start Russia didn't directly shoot an airliner themselves.
And the guys in the rescue helicopter sent to recover the pilots who were shot at whilst parachuting down were hardly a threat to anyone.
I'm not defending anyone's actions as the whole thing is messed up but Russia aren't any worse than any of the other countries involved in this.
Soldato
It doesn't matter in this thread. Apparently all Turkey and Turkish are responsible for buying ISIL oil and all the West is responsible for all things bad, ever. No need to differentiate between governments, people's and militant groups, that's too difficult. You just need one brush.
Isn't that how the world works? Especially in order to make a point.
Let us not get into goodies/baddies/moderates. That's a can of worms.
I explicitly said my thoughts were specifically on the Syria conflict thus far and the way he and his country have carried themsevles compared to the likes of the USA.
So it is your ramblings that make no sense and are going away off from what I even said by not even countering my opinion on the actual subject.
no Russia didn't shoot down a plane.
they (possibly) supl;ied a weapons system that was used by a third party to shoot down a plane.
just like the usa supplied that missile launcher that shot down the Russian helicopter.
turkey shot down this Russian jet with their own weapons.
Soldato
So what you're saying is.... It's about goodies and baddies.?
Soldato
Soldato
I can see you know very little about the BUK SAM system from your reply.
its not a point and shoot MANPAD , its a multi part system which requires extensive training to use - at all. That and the USA tracked the vehicles returning back to their units, within Russia, after the shoot down.
so my point stands - Russia murdered flight MH17
Your point stands as well as a drunk does;
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/07/30/need-to-fire-a-buk-missile-look-online/
I've looked for said instructions and whilst I obviously can't verify their authenticity they do indeed exist online. Reuters seem pretty convinced it's not as difficult as you make it out to be.
There's no proof of Russia being involved short of them having designed the system initially.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/07/30/need-to-fire-a-buk-missile-look-online/
I've looked for said instructions and whilst I obviously can't verify their authenticity they do indeed exist online. Reuters seem pretty convinced it's not as difficult as you make it out to be.
There's no proof of Russia being involved short of them having designed the system initially.
Soldato
Soldato
ofc - lets have the latest SAM system instruction manual online shall we! I'm sure you can go and read it then plot a radar track - please go ahead *facepalm*
that and the small detail the USA tracked the system driving back over the border and followed it to the base of origin inside Russia.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...litary-truck-carrying-BUK-M1-border-town.html
I didn't think the helicopter was shot down.. was it not shot once all the pilots and crew were out of it?
Russia has been flying its bombers near the UK's airspace near on daily, for years. Our jets are always being scrambled. Something like this had to have happened at some point.
Russia has been flying its bombers near the UK's airspace near on daily, for years. Our jets are always being scrambled. Something like this had to have happened at some point.
Soldato
They fly near and the QRA lads are mach busting to meet them ; they don't fly through our airspace on a daily event to bomb someone else.
that's the difference
Russia is totally at fault here
Ok so we have a blogger who followed a military vehicle carrying a covered item and came to the conclusion it's the exact same BUK?
Or we have German intelligence coming to the conclusion that it was a BUK captured by Ukrainian rebels;
http://m.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/a-997885.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=
Or American officials believing it was a pro Russian separatist group from within the territory they controlled;
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-intelligence-us-20140722-story.html
I have no idea if I could I haven't read them nor do I have access to the kit used(doubt it though as I've never touched a weapon greater than a knife in my life, that's not to say it would be impossible). I doubt it requires a degree in mathematics to follow instructions of equipment designed to be used by people who don't tend to be nuclear scientists.
Or we have German intelligence coming to the conclusion that it was a BUK captured by Ukrainian rebels;
http://m.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/a-997885.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=
Or American officials believing it was a pro Russian separatist group from within the territory they controlled;
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-intelligence-us-20140722-story.html
I have no idea if I could I haven't read them nor do I have access to the kit used(doubt it though as I've never touched a weapon greater than a knife in my life, that's not to say it would be impossible). I doubt it requires a degree in mathematics to follow instructions of equipment designed to be used by people who don't tend to be nuclear scientists.
Man of Honour
It was on the ground, allegedly by an anti-tank missile:
but the Russians said destroyed by mortar fire. One marine from the search and rescue team was killed.
Source? It's not in the link you provided.
Russia loans a system to the forces they support in The Ukraine, being untrained but capable of pushing buttons, they lock up and down a civilian airliner. Must point out that a major design consideration for all military hardware is to make it 'squaddy proof', the less number of steps between pointing, clicking and booming the better... but there will be an aspect of learning appropriate target recognition and ways to tell if you've locked up a friendly or civilian craft.
MH17 happens, Russia takes toys back until they learn how to use them responsibly, disavows knowledge like any interfering third party has done in any conflict they messed around in since forever. CIA giving the Afghan Mujahideen training and Stingers in the '80's etc... and lets see how that didn't come back and bite us on the ass.
tbf a mobile sam system surely has to be far more complicated than a shoulder mounted short range stinger any grunt can fire?
Soldato