Scottish University Fees facing Legal Challenge

Castiel · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:25

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14607122

A human rights lawyer is expected to challenge the inherent unfairness in how Scottish University Fees are applied to Scottish and EU students, yet not to English or Welsh students.

Under EU rules, students coming to Scotland from other European countries have to be treated in the same way as Scottish students but those who come from other UK nations do not

I would expect that as all the citizens of the constituent nations within the UK are effectively members of the EU he will argue that the rules should apply to them as they do to French, Irish, German or other EU citizens.

With the Welsh Assembly stating that they will cover the cost of extra fees for Welsh students studying in English Universities it is becoming increasing clear that English Students are being treated differently simply because of their geographical location within the EU, especially with Michael Russell stating that English Students attending Scottish Institutions will be charged the £9000 in fees regardless of what fees the Universities set themselves to 'limit cross border flow'

This is all against a backdrop where the Scottish Universities are highly critical of the Scottish Parliament stating that under their current rules which they claim are politically motivated they face shortfalls in funding of over £200m for the next year alone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/29/english-students-top-tuition-fees-scotland

The loophole in EU legislation that allows Scotland to treat the other citizens of the UK differently is now subject to legal challenge and in my opinion it is about time.

Pate · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:27

The scots have had it FAR to easy for far to long. Wouldn't say no to granting the sods their independance.

Dolph · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:29

Sounds good to me, especially as a precursor to the rules they'd have to follow if they became independent.

RomanNose · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:31

Good stuff, I say we put Hadrians wall back in action!

the_r_sole · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:32

Erm... being able to have a different approach to things like education is the entire point of devolved powers...

Castiel · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:34

Dolph said:
Sounds good to me, especially as a precursor to the rules they'd have to follow if they became independent.

If they became independent and members of the EU. Which is why the loophole exists, currently they are not a member state, the UK is and thus they can charge the other constituent nations citizens whatever they like.

I would assume that the basis of the challenge would revolve around the fact that regardless of the geographical position of the prospective student they are all EU citizens and are subject to EU legislation.

However I am not a lawyer and the nuances of European legislation is somewhat lost on me. Hopefully one of our resident law students can give some insight and we can debate the meat of the issue.

Jokester · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:35

the_r_sole said:
Erm... being able to have a different approach to things like education is the entire point of devolved powers...

Indeed, a judgement against this would have knock on effects on a whole host of other things like prescription fees, council tax or any host of other charges and fees that vary with regions within the UK.

Castiel · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:37

the_r_sole said:
Erm... being able to have a different approach to things like education is the entire point of devolved powers...

It is not about a different approach to education, it is about application of funding depending upon the legislation and ordinary domicile of the student.

Michael Russell is also wishing to close the loophole, but so the Scottish Government do not have to fund any EU student, rather than just the other UK ones.

Jokester said:
Indeed, a judgement against this would have knock on effects on a whole host of other things like prescription fees, council tax or any host of other charges and fees that vary with regions within the UK.

Maybe not, as those things are specific to the devolved countries and are not subject to the same EU legislation. For example, if I moved from England to Scotland I would be entitled to Free Prescriptions and so on, yet if I moved from England to Scotland to study I would not be entitled to pay the same fees as my next door neighbour simply because I wouldn't qualify unless I had lived in Scotland for several years prior, yet if I moved from Paris to Scotland I would be entitled to the pay the same fees as my next door neighbour regardless of the time I spent living in Scotland.

Strife212 · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:38

Why would it, it's specfically part of EU law regarding University fees.

Sukh · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:39

the_r_sole said:
Erm... being able to have a different approach to things like education is the entire point of devolved powers...

They don't pay for what they spend.

Destination · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:40

Jokester said:
Indeed, a judgement against this would have knock on effects on a whole host of other things like prescription fees, council tax or any host of other charges and fees that vary with regions within the UK.

Not quite the same, an English person getting a prescription in scotland surely gets it at the same rate as a Scot?
Certainly living in glasgow and paying counci tax, you'd pay at the same rate?
In this case they are actively discriminating against English.

Ahleckz · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:41

Instead of trying to force Scottish universities to open up for free to English students, these lawyers should spend more time trying to fix the problems within the English system. The Scottish Government decided to do this, and pay for it accordingly. England can follow suit if they wish, though obviously money will be diverted elsewhere.
Why should English students get free education? Are they going to be boosting the Scottish economy apart from during their studies or are they going to return back to England during holidays and after graduation?
Thankfully this legal challenge won't go far at all.

Jokester · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:41

Hikari Kisugi said:
Not quite the same, an English person getting a prescription in scotland surely gets it at the same rate as a Scot?
Certainly living in glasgow and paying counci tax, you'd pay at the same rate?
In this case they are actively discriminating against English.

Someone English living in Scotland can get free university education as well.

Brookert · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:42

I've always hated this. There is massive inequality in services depending on where you live.

I would love the Scottish to become independent, lets see your free uni's and free prescriptions now!

Castiel · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:43

Jokester said:
Someone English living in Scotland can get free university education as well.

Not unless they meet certain qualifying criteria. The same is not true of other devolved differences such as prescription charges.

Richie · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:43

Perhaps some people in this thread should look at this objectively.

1. Scottish Government chose to not introduce Uni fees in Scotland
2. Students that are Scottish are eligible for this
3. EU students are eligible due to EU legislation and NOT by choice of the Scottish Government.
4. Scottish Government made non-Scottish students ineligible to stop a flood of non-Scottish students taking places that Scottish students should be entitled to if they make the grades.

Are non-Scottish, UK students being treated unfairly? Yes, but only because the EU has interfered and basically forced the Scottish Government to make EU but non-UK students eligible.

If you want to criticise someone, criticise the EU. If it wasn't for them then ALL non-Scottish students would be paying.

If a Scottish student wanted to study in another part of the UK, they would be expected to pay which I also think is fair (unlike what is happening with Welsh students studying in England) because that is the choice of the Scottish student not to take advantage of their right to free tuition within their home country.

But hey, I don't expect much more than a general anti-Scottish argument to ensue on here because people would rather that than actually be objective. That is already clear given that people are focusing on it being a problem with the Scottish system even when the story states it is not explicitly happening in Scotland i.e. Wales is mentioned..... It's the same thing that happens when the Barnett Formula rears it's head even though Scotland is not actually the biggest "winner" from that (NI is).

As I said, don't let's be objective or anything....

Ahleckz · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:45

Richie said:
Perhaps some people in this thread should look at this objectively.

1. Scottish Government chose to not introduce Uni fees in Scotland
2. Students that are Scottish are eligible for this
3. EU students are eligible due to EU legislation and NOT by choice of the Scottish Government.
4. Scottish Government made non-Scottish students ineligible to stop a flood of non-Scottish students taking places that Scottish students should be entitled to if they make the grades.

Are non-Scottish, UK students being treated unfairly? Yes, but only because the EU has interfered and basically forced the Scottish Government to make EU but non-UK students eligible.

If you want to criticise someone, criticise the EU. If it wasn't for them then ALL non-Scottish students would be paying.

If a Scottish student wanted to study in another part of the UK, they would be expected to pay which I also think is fair (unlike what is happening with Welsh students studying in England) because that is the choice of the Scottish student not to take advantage of their right to free tuition within their home country.

But hey, I don't expect much more than a general anti-Scottish argument to ensue on here because people would rather that than actually be objective. That is already clear given that people are focusing on it being a problem with the Scottish system even when the story states it is not explicitly happening in Scotland i.e. Wales is mentioned..... It's the same thing that happens when the Barnett Formula rears it's head even though Scotland is not actually the biggest "winner" from that (NI is).

As I said, don't let's be objective or anything....

Surprisingly well put, thought out and intelligent post. People should read this instead of going for the anti Scottish sentiment so often seen on here.

Castiel · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:45

Ahleckz said:
Instead of trying to force Scottish universities to open up for free to English students, these lawyers should spend more time trying to fix the problems within the English system. The Scottish Government decided to do this, and pay for it accordingly. England can follow suit if they wish, though obviously money will be diverted elsewhere.
Why should English students get free education? Are they going to be boosting the Scottish economy apart from during their studies or are they going to return back to England during holidays and after graduation?
Thankfully this legal challenge won't go far at all.

The same can be said of other EU citizens.

Seems a little presumptive to state categorically that the legal challenge will not get far, especially as the Scottish Govt themselves are looking at the same loophole, but from a different perspective.

Jokester · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:46

Castiel said:
Not unless they meet certain qualifying criteria. The same is not true of other devolved differences such as prescription charges.

Indeed, there's rules to prevent abuse of the system, but the point remains, someone English can get the same education so it immediately fails on the grounds of discrimination based on Nationality as it's rather based on "ordinary domicile".

Richie · 21 Aug 2011 at 15:47

Hikari Kisugi said:
In this case they are actively discriminating against English.

No they are not. The same applies to Welsh and NI students. It just so happens that, according to that story, the Welsh Government will pay for the Welsh student. Can't say what happens with the NI student.

Trying to make this a Scotland v England thing is what will ultimately turn this discussion into an 8 page pile of ****.

Let me ask this - If Scotland charged EU students as well, would you have an issue? If not, please bear in mind who forced the Scottish Government to allow EU student to be eligible for free tuition....