Scottish University Fees facing Legal Challenge

Castiel said:
The same can be said of other EU citizens.

Seems a little presumptive to state categorically that the legal challenge will not get far, especially as the Scottish Govt themselves are looking at the same loophole, but from a different perspective.
Click to expand...

I meant the legal challenge succeeding by allowing students from England to study for free in Scotland.

Why do you think that they should? Don't you think that that would just endanger the Scottish university system by flooding it with English students looking for a free ride?

Address the issues in England rather than looking for the easy way out by forcing Scotland to do something that will harm its own citizens.
 
Richie said:
No they are not. The same applies to Welsh and NI students. It just so happens that, according to that story, the Welsh Government will pay for the Welsh student. Can't say what happens with the NI student.

Trying to make this a Scotland v England thing is what will ultimately turn this discussion into an 8 page pile of ****.



Let me ask this - If Scotland charged EU students as well, would you have an issue? If not, please bear in mind who forced the Scottish Government to allow EU student to be eligible for free tuition....
Click to expand...

NI students pay their own fees.
 
Richie said:
Perhaps some people in this thread should look at this objectively.

1. Scottish Government chose to not introduce Uni fees in Scotland
2. Students that are Scottish are eligible for this
3. EU students are eligible due to EU legislation and NOT by choice of the Scottish Government.
4. Scottish Government made non-Scottish students ineligible to stop a flood of non-Scottish students taking places that Scottish students should be entitled to if they make the grades.

Are non-Scottish, UK students being treated unfairly? Yes, but only because the EU has interfered and basically forced the Scottish Government to make EU but non-UK students eligible.


If you want to criticise someone, criticise the EU. If it wasn't for them then ALL non-Scottish students would be paying.


If a Scottish student wanted to study in another part of the UK, they would be expected to pay which I also think is fair (unlike what is happening with Welsh students studying in England) because that is the choice of the Scottish student not to take advantage of their right to free tuition within their home country.


But hey, I don't expect much more than a general anti-Scottish argument to ensue on here because people would rather that than actually be objective. That is already clear given that people are focusing on it being a problem with the Scottish system even when the story states it is not explicitly happening in Scotland i.e. Wales is mentioned..... It's the same thing that happens when the Barnett Formula rears it's head even though Scotland is not actually the biggest "winner" from that (NI is).

As I said, don't let's be objective or anything....
Click to expand...



I'm not being anti-Scottish, but asking the question if non Scottish UK citizens should be treated any differently from their EU counterparts, and whether the loophole in the EU legislation is subject to legal challenge, either in favour of limiting Scottish Fees to Scottish citizens only or including ALL EU residents and not just the non UK ones.
 
Ahleckz said:
I meant the legal challenge succeeding by allowing students from England to study for free in Scotland.

Why do you think that they should? Don't you think that that would just endanger the Scottish university system by flooding it with English students looking for a free ride?

Address the issues in England rather than looking for the easy way out by forcing Scotland to do something that will harm its own citizens.
Click to expand...

I haven't said they should do anything, only that it is about time the inherent unfairness that an non Scottish UK citizen has to pay the fees, yet a non Scottish EU citizen does not.

This actually has little to do with Scotland and more to do with the EU.
 
Jokester said:
Indeed, there's rules to prevent abuse of the system, but the point remains, someone English can get the same education so it immediately fails on the grounds of discrimination based on Nationality as it's rather based on "ordinary domicile".
Click to expand...

Which I mentioned earlier, but then if a student moves to Glasgow for example and either rents or buys a permanent residence then where is their ordinary domicile?

And the question I am really asking is can you discriminate based on ordinary domicilewhen that ordinary domicile is in the EU.
 
Sukh said:
They don't pay for what they spend.
Click to expand...

How is that an argument? Devolved governments are given a budget and decide how to use it, if they get more than they put in that is the fault of the central government who set it!
The only reason this case has even been thought up is because of the Tory priorities which are really hurting everything especially the young in england, problem is the votes are coming from the old and better off and they will continue to aim their policies there...
 
I am surprise the scottish govt didnt introduce fees and then introduce a bursary to offset it for those who qualified from a scottish secondary school.
That waybthey could apply the fees tomthe whole of europe, and everyone would get charged, just some would get an educational bursary, thus wouldn't be an issue for the EU at all.
 
Castiel said:
I'm not being anti-Scottish, but asking the question if non Scottish UK citizens should be treated any differently from their EU counterparts, and whether the loophole in the EU legislation is subject to legal challenge, either in favour of limiting Scottish Fees to Scottish citizens only or including ALL EU residents and not just the non UK ones.
Click to expand...

I actually didn't say you were being anti-Scottish. I was simply asking people to have a think for 2 minutes before posting anything because, as is the general outcome with threads like this in GD, it will just end up a "Scotland v English" tirade with blinkered anti-Scot and Anti-English comments being spouted by the usual crowd....

Your point about "should the question be asked" I agree with. I do have a feeling that our views on the result will, however, diverge in that you (I assume albeit I may be wrong) want the system to be opened up to allow everyone studying in Scotland to have free tuition whereas I want it the other way to block EU "migrant students"** from being eligible and to pay for it.

** I use the term migrant students to mean those that come here for a free education only to **** off back home thereby leeching off the country.
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
I am surprise the scottish govt didnt introduce fees and then introduce a bursary to offset it for those who qualified from a scottish secondary school.
That waybthey could apply the fees tomthe whole of europe, and everyone would get charged, just some would get an educational bursary, thus wouldn't be an issue for the EU at all.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

This is also an issue for the Scottish Govt, as I have mentioned, they are looking at options so that they are no longer liable for the £75m it costs to educate EU citizens.
 
Castiel said:
Which I mentioned earlier, but then if a student moves to Glasgow for example and either rents or buys a permanent residence then where is their ordinary domicile?

And the question I am really asking is can you discriminate based on ordinary domicilewhen that ordinary domicile is in the EU.
Click to expand...
Well what ever the rules say, the point is, someone born in Scotland is subject to exactly the same rules as someone born elsewhere in the UK, so if they move to England when they're a kid they would then be subject to the same fees as someone English who has lived in England all their life. Ergo, not discrimination.
 
the_r_sole said:
Erm... being able to have a different approach to things like education is the entire point of devolved powers...
Click to expand...

the_r_sole said:
How is that an argument? Devolved governments are given a budget and decide how to use it, if they get more than they put in that is the fault of the central government who set it!
Click to expand...

I was just explaining why people feel anger towards this.

England:

Pay for uni
Pay for presecriptions
Pay taxes

Scotland:
Pay less taxes and get better deal

Can you see why people may be annoyed?
 
Richie said:
I actually didn't say you were being anti-Scottish. I was simply asking people to have a think for 2 minutes before posting anything because, as is the general outcome with threads like this in GD, it will just end up a "Scotland v English" tirade with blinkered anti-Scot and Anti-English comments being spouted by the usual crowd....

Your point about "should the question be asked" I agree with. I do have a feeling that our views on the result will, however, diverge in that you (I assume albeit I may be wrong) want the system to be opened up to allow everyone studying in Scotland to have free tuition whereas I want it the other way to block EU "migrant students"** from being eligible and to pay for it.

** I use the term migrant students to mean those that come here for a free education only to **** off back home thereby leeching off the country.
Click to expand...


I want to see the inherent unfairness removed, and the criteria for eligibility for Scottish Fees (or lack thereof) equally applied to all Non Scottish EU citizens, be they from the UK or not. Whether that means all getting free education or only Scottish or those who have lived for the eligible periods being eligible for free education.
 
Jokester said:
Well what ever the rules say, the point is, someone born in Scotland is subject to exactly the same rules as someone born elsewhere in the UK, so if they move to England when they're a kid they would then be subject to the same fees as someone English who has lived in England all their life. Ergo, not discrimination.
Click to expand...

Not discrimination based on nationality, but it is discrimination based on geographical domicile within the EU, which is still discrimination according to EU legislation. The loophole revolves around the definition of member states rather than the status of the individual and this I expect this the basis of the legal challenge.
 
Castiel said:
Not discrimination based on nationality, but it is discrimination based on geographical domicile within the EU, which is still discrimination according to EU legislation. The loophole revolves around the definition of member states rather than the status of the individual and this I expect this the basis of the legal challenge.
Click to expand...
This is why EU students are able to qualify for free education, the legisation deals with interstates, not intrastate. Otherwise, as I said things like council tax, prescriptions, care for the elderly etc would all fall under it as well. It could ultimately kill off devolution in the UK if the Scottish government loses.
 
Jokester said:
This is why EU students are able to qualify for free education, the legisation deals with interstates, not intrastate. Otherwise, as I said things like council tax, prescriptions, care for the elderly etc would all fall under it as well. It could ultimately kill off devolution in the UK if the Scottish government loses.
Click to expand...

I don't think it will, as you would still have to live in Scotland to qualify, it would only effect the criteria for eligibility of those who move to Scotland and not the ability of the Scottish Govt to bring in Scotland specific legislation or public services in regard to Scottish residents.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom