Scottish University Fees facing Legal Challenge
- Thread starter Castiel
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Only if other EU citizens were allowed to vote in Scottish elections, which they are not, so that has no bearing on this discussion.
Man of Honour
It's not just something to hack the English off, the fees for studying apply to any citizens in the UK who don't meet the domicile requirements - granted that will affect more English than any other nationality purely because they make up the greatest portion of the UK's population. Although I love the idea of Alex Salmond twirling his imaginary moustache chuckling to himself like a weird dumpy supervillain as he ponders how much he is winding up the English over tuition fees that's simply not what is happening here.
It is unfair to a certain extent but let's not just make this about Scotland and England.
That was a ninja edit, my previous comments still stand!
Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway are also entitled to free university in Scotland.
Even so as the UK is a member of the EEA the inherent unfairness still applies, although all the references I have read, including that of Michael Russell the Scottish Education Secretary or heard refer to EU legislation, specifically those applying to the European Convention on Human Rights and now recently the UK Equality Act which also applies to Scotland as signed by Alex Neil MSP.
Either way it treats EU/EEA citizens differently based on their geographic location and as such is discriminatory on those grounds.
Soldato
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If people in England don't want to pay tuition fees they should have voted for someone else! It's a bit strange to knowingly vote someone in that said they would charge tuition fees then expect that a country that voted to keep free education to provide it those that voted against it...
I am not making it about England and Scotland, neither have I said it is aimed purposely at the English just to hack them off.
I have already said it is not about nationality, but the eligibility based on the domicile of the individual, this is about application of EU rules fairly and not about the Scottish Govt and their rights to apply zero fees to their residents. It is the eligibility of those residents that is discriminatory because it is based on the domicile of the individual and not the EU status of the individual. So If I moved from Paris to Glasgow to attend University I would be eligible from day one, yet if I moved from London to Glasgow, I would not. Yet I am still an EU (or EEA) citizen so the rules should be applied equally regardless of which part of the EU I moved from.
Both the Scottish Govt who want to only pay for residents of Scotland (subject to their criteria for residence) and those who want the criteria removed entirely have the same issue, albeit from differing perspectives. For me, I care not which camp get there way as long as the eligibility is applied equally to non-Scottish residents, unlike the situation as it stands.
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Man of Honour
Every example used has been if an Englishman moves to Scotland which, intentionally or otherwise, looks like it is about just England and Scotland.
For what it is worth I do think it is unfair but then again I don't think Scottish universities could cope with the potential influx of students if it became a popular way to avoid tuition fees for people from the other Home Nations. I suppose that would mean rejecting an awful lot of students if it is ruled to be illegal.
It was only for the purposes of the example to keep it simple as the eligibility discriminates against non-Scottish UK residents rather than non-Scottish EU residents.
I think the Scottish Universities themselves want to force the Scottish Govt to set fees for everyone as they are complaining of a shortfall of over £200m and that was before the cuts of £60m announced by Holyrood.
Whatever happens, something is going to give eventually.
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Soldato
Are you actually reading Castiel's posts?
Castiel is not saying that it's unfair that English students have to pay tuition fees in Scotland. He's stating that, why should they if other non-Scottish students are entitled to free education within Scotland?
If you think that is right then you need to step back for a second and actually see what is being said.
Castiel is saying that is is unfair that a French student can claim free tuition by going to Scotland to study. The same applies for Spain, Greece, Italy etc etc as they are part of the EU but so is England so why is there one rule for some countries and another for some others?
Get it now?
Castiel is correct - it IS unfair but you (the_r_sole) seem so blinkered and entrenched in your views you are taking this as a Scotland v England thing which it is NOT.
Never has a username been so apt....
Soldato
I hope it goes this way as I cannot grasp why we have to pay for foreign students only for them to **** off back to their respective homes after effectively leeching an education from us. An education which then enables them to enter a career, make money and then pump said money into their own home country's economy!!!
If someone not from here wants to be enabled by our country to make a career then they should pay for it...
Soldato
Good on the human rights lawyer.
I can completely understand the idea of "You haven't paid into it (taxes), so you don't get it for free"
.
But to treat two different groups of people differently when they both haven't paid into it (UK & EU) is wrong. Actually, haven't UK people paid into it anyways? (IIRC the UK sends something like £20 billion a year up to Edinburgh).
I can completely understand the idea of "You haven't paid into it (taxes), so you don't get it for free"
.But to treat two different groups of people differently when they both haven't paid into it (UK & EU) is wrong. Actually, haven't UK people paid into it anyways? (IIRC the UK sends something like £20 billion a year up to Edinburgh).
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The UK is though, which effectively makes it's citizens entitled to the same benefits as those from other EEA countries.
Soldato
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But there would be no debate or case to answer if the government in Westminster hadn't decided to cut fundin for higher education in England, it might appear unfair but the Scottish higher education system shouldn't be punished for this!
If you really want to appear silly why don't you resort to name calling on an internet forum?!
If you really want to appear silly why don't you resort to name calling on an internet forum?!
Man of Honour
Fair enough, sorry, it's probably just that chip on my shoulder making me read something more into the comment than was intended.
I think you're right that the Scottish universities want to force fees on everyone, the thought of what they could do with an effective tripling of the fees is unlikely to be passed up easily. Whether it actually benefits the students much in terms of the resources or quality of teaching available is another matter entirely.
I haven't called you anything even remotely resembling an insult.
As people are pointing out, this is not about how Scotland funds University education, but how the eligibility rules are applied unfairly.
No-one is suggesting punishing the Scottish Education system, only having the rules applied equally and fairly in respect to all EU citizens and not discriminating against them based on what part of the EU they live.
If that means limiting eligibility to only Scottish Residents then that is fine, it is the unfairness and not the fact that there are no fees that I have issue with.
Soldato
He means me....
Fair enough, sorry, it's probably just that chip on my shoulder making me read something more into the comment than was intended.
Perfectly understandable considering the usual course these threads take regarding the age old enmity...
I try to be a little more objective (although I expect I am not so much on occasion)
My opinion is that this is what they want and it wouldn't surprise me if they are lobbying the Scottish Govt to do just that, however I doubt that the SNP would give up their flagship policy so easily, they are more likely to push for a exclusion of all EU students from being eligible as Michael Russell has pointed out.
Either way it is a win-win for the Scottish Universities, (and maybe for the English ones if EU residents are no longer eligible)