Singapore Grand Prix 2013, Marina Bay - Race 13/19
- Thread starter Duke
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Well said.
Very funny and agreed.
I wasn't convinced when Vettel won his first title. He barely won it, in the best car on the grid.
The following year he had the best car and broke all sorts of records.
The next year when he won the title, cemented his place as one of (statistically) the best of all time.
And a 4th title this year will certainly put place him as an all-time great, alongside Prost. Winning 4 titles, even in the best car is not as easy as some people seem to think.
To put it into context, last year, RBR had an equal best car with McLaren. The Vettel haters come up with all sorts of excuses why he beat both McLaren drivers last year but the simple fact is, when it comes to results - he delivers, where even Alonso (who I rate as F1's best), doesn't. Vettel is simply a fantastic championship driver...just as Prost was, decades before him.
I know its premature, but looking at those lap times it looks like RBR have actually opened up the gap, over their competition, as opposed to the competition closing up on them. Could it be that the competition has given up on this season?
Associate
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IMO those times that RBR have done are set in qual type trim just look at P2 from Monza Vettel had a big gap but it came a lot closer when everyone set there ultimate qual time.
My gut feeling is that Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonen would have the better of Vettel if they ever found themselves team mates.
I also don't think Vettel, despite his amazing results, has shown himself to be as dominate as MSc was during his first career. Of course it's a different era and comparisons are hard but in my opinion Vettel still has work to do to prove he's a real great, rather than quick driver in the best car. MSc won championships in a 2nd rate car (despite several race disqualification!), the Benetton in '94 and '95, and put in some amazing performances in the late nineties.
For 10-13 the Redbull's been the best car. Kudos to Vettel for converting the advantage into championships. But until he beats a top flight team mate or wins a championship in a 2nd rate car, I find it hard to rank him among the very best.
This tends to be the final big upgrades of the season at this race.
I'm pretty sure and correct me if I'm wrong that points only tally for one season. So Hamilton BEAT JB 2-1?
By your reckoning Hamilton could have beaten Button over 2 seasons that led to titles and Button could utterly destroy him in the third and win nothing and somehow that would be a result because it would be over 3 seasons tally.
just hope vimto will crash out early or his gearbox goes.
Oh jeez, the handbags have already started. Who cares which driver is better, what driver has done this or that. This isn't a playground. All those drivers out there risk their lives for your entertainment, not for you to bicker...
It's the fortnightly Hamilton/Button debate, welcome.
I'd love to know how many points you get for finishing in front of your team-mate, and how many points you get for pole position though.
How did my post appear before irish tom's, yet he posted before me o_O
I'm talking two drivers head to head same machinery, equal terms, over x amounts of races. Therefore Jenson achieved more points than Lewis.
Add the fact that in the 2010 season Lewis had already been at Mclaren for three years (more if you count the fact that he was nurtured within the team for many more years before that) so Jenson was disadvantaged for that season, so he could have scored even more points.
That's ok, you're entitled to your opinion. A better driver he may be, but Jenson is a better racing driver
The points don't lie...
If Lewis beat Jenson so dramatically in Qualifying (which I'll admit he did) why didn't he collect more World Championship points ?
That's correct; race craft. Something which eludes Lewis Hamilton compared to Jenson Button.
the Balance is strong in this one..no..wait
and imo there is every reason to give up any big pushes for the top teams and absolutely no reason for lotus to spend anything more than necessary
if policed well (potentially impossible) a budget cap might stop this changing focus if the years spend was pre allocated
Friday press conference and photos added to OP. The cars look great under the lights 
More pics here as well - http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/20/2013-singapore-grand-prix-practice-in-pictures/
More pics here as well - http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/20/2013-singapore-grand-prix-practice-in-pictures/
Caporegime
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That's ok, you're entitled to your opinion. A better driver he may be, but Jenson is a better racing driver
The points don't lie...
If Lewis beat Jenson so dramatically in Qualifying (which I'll admit he did) why didn't he collect more World Championship points ?
That's correct; race craft. Something which eludes Lewis Hamilton compared to Jenson Button.
Complete tosh, it's called luck and EVERY driver is hit by it. ONLY because of one year in which Maldonado and Massa(twice was it)and Webber smashed Hamilton off the track in completely fair moves(by Hamilton), could Button "beat" Hamilton. One season Button had 90% of the luck and Hamilton had 10% of it and that one season when everything went wrong Button outscored Hamilton, he did not in the other two seasons and even then Hamilton didn't have as much luck as Button.
Rosberg has won two races and Hamilton hasn't, and that closed the gap significantly and Rosberg has had less (in terms of races) luck than Hamilton. But when you get great luck in the only two races it's even possible to win, and you have no luck when the best the car could do was 6th anyway. Hamilton in the opposite way to Rosberg has had almost all his bad luck when he's been in heavy points scoring positions.
You use a single season full of incredibly obvious decisions in which you hope everyone can't remember to pretend Button outscored Hamilton. In 2 of 3 seasons, he didn't.
Then I'll add, who is doing better Bianci or Chilton, Bottas or Maldonado this year? Points are everything..... in relation to winning a title and nothing else. Points don't tell the story that Webber completely beaten decided to smash into Hamilton and cost him points when he was ahead(iirc) of Button. Hamilton had pace in that Canada race that made Button look embarrassingly slow... and it took Button another collision and a HUGE amount of fluke to pit at the right time in the right conditions and gained 25 points in a single race in which Hamilton was again faster.
Any driver can beat another driver if they have their luckiest year and their opposite driver has their worst year. Over 3 years the luck just about evened out(well not really, Hamilton had less kamikaze pilots ruining his races) and Hamilton beat him 2 out of 3 times.
Points and titles mean 99% what the car can do not the driver. A driver can have an amazing race and a better drive coming from 10th to 3rd than a driver who poles and wins the race.. the opposite is completely possible as well. Points simply don't tell the story at all, no tyre explosions, no bad steward decisions, no absurd team mistakes. One race someone poles easily and wins with the best car with zero competion, another race someone from 15th outdrives everyone on the day, are the two drives equal because they both got max points.
Fact is anyone who could beat Webber and was at Red Bull was capable of winning 3 titles in a row, anyone who has a horrendously unlucky year will score less than others.
If someone hit ALonso off the track in every race this season allowing Massa both more points than normal(with Alonso dropping out) and allowing Massa to outscore him over the last 3 years.... would that make Massa the better driver?
I do like what you elude to as racecraft, ultimately you believe it's being slower than everyone, backing out of 90% of the fights, and every now and then winning a race when everyone ahead of you smacks into each other? There is a reason why in the past 4 years(including this one) people seriously considered Hamilton a contended for over half the year in 4 of them, and Button in just one.
James Allen did a pretty comprehensive article on the whole LH vs JB thing.
Hamilton lost three potential race wins in 2012 alone due to car/team failure. Those 75 points alone (which have nothing to do with race craft) would have meant Hamilton 'won' hands down.
Hamilton lost three potential race wins in 2012 alone due to car/team failure. Those 75 points alone (which have nothing to do with race craft) would have meant Hamilton 'won' hands down.