SNP to break up Britian?

[Tephnos]

Norway's social differences to the UK and Scotland are massive, their entire approach of how things work would be completely alien to us here. This can be highlighted by the prison sentence handed to Breivik, 21 years for everything that he did because Norway admirably believes in rehabilitation, a sentence like that here would cause massive outcry and would lose the government in power the next election.

The Scandinavian mindset of survival in both literal and economic senses is again, to be admired, they do not expect the state to help them when they are perfectly capable themselves, I cannot see that transferring to a country that's been staunchly Labour.

There's also the tax aspect, Scotland would not bring in external investment with the rUK sat a few hundred miles south which would be able to offer lower costs across the board. Would the 'average Scot' be willing to have himself taxed at such a level?

Except they get around that by declaring him 'unfit for release' every 21 years, no?

I think you may need to go back and read some history. Scotland's input to the industrial revolution is, without doubt, vital, but to say it was "pretty much single handedly" Scottish is frankly rubbish. Arkwright, Compton, Samuels, Trevithick were all English for example.

I did say 'up and running'. James Watt's contributions among other things is what pretty much got the ball rolling. That is what I meant. I don't like to be overly patriotic, but I won't deny that a huge number of Scots contributed massive things to the industrial world.

 

[EdwardTeach]

I would be more than happy to see Scotland get independence.

I don't think it would change much. Our economies would still be very linked, you would still have a lot of Scots coming down here for work etc We will still be right next to each other and I don't see cross border tourism being affected.

I am not happy with things the way they are. It is manifestly unfair that we all pay tax, but residents of Scotland are getting things like university for free.

 

[RDM]

I did say 'up and running'. James Watt's contributions among other things is what pretty much got the ball rolling. That is what I meant.

Surely that honour would instead fall to Newcomen(English) considering that Watt's design was an improvement on that? Watt's engine is undoubtedly important as far as the Industrial Revolution goes but it was one of several designs and it was the textile mills of Lancashire where it really started.

I don't like to be overly patriotic, but I won't deny that a huge number of Scots contributed massive things to the industrial world.

Whilst banging the drum for the Scots involved in the Industrial revolution is indeed patriotic, downplaying other nations involvement starts drifting in to nationalistic and not in a good way.

 

[Superficial]

I did say 'up and running'. James Watt's contributions among other things is what pretty much got the ball rolling. That is what I meant. I don't like to be overly patriotic, but I won't deny that a huge number of Scots contributed massive things to the industrial world.

yep, James Watt was a great man....and today I find it ironic that he is often cited by nationalists as an example of what the Scots did on their own as you have done.

The problem, of course, is that he is famous, chiefly, for improving the efficiency of the English Newcommon steam engine. He spent much of his life in England and partnered with an Englishman.

Yep Watt was an amazing Scotsman but, in reality, a posterboy for Scottish unionists.

 

[Socrates470BC]

yep, James Watt was a great man....and today I find it ironic that he is often cited by nationalists as an example of what the Scots did on their own as you have done.

The problem, of course, is that he is famous, chiefly, for improving the efficiency of the English Newcommon steam engine. He spent much of his life in England and partnered with an Englishman.

Yep Watt was an amazing Scotsman but, in reality, a posterboy for Scottish unionists.

The purpose of acknowleding the contributions of Scots in the World is not to 'bang the drum' for nationalists.

The purpose is to let the people of Scotland know that they are a capable people, with the ability to contribute on the world stage.

The purpose is to show that those who suggest that the people of Scotland are not capable of running their own affairs have no evidence for this false assertion. The facts show that the Scottish people are more than capable.

 

[Richie]

Did I say that Scotland would be better off.



What I do know is that a country does better if it has its own descision making powers. This is borne out if you have visited Ediburgh since the Scottish parliament opened.

The figures and benefits of Scottish Oil have been fudged since the 1960s when we were told by the westminster government that the oil would last only 10 years.

Scotland already has a government budget. Check it out for yourself.

Also note that even with proportional representation the SNP got elected by more than 50% of the population. All of those people may not want independance but they do recognise that the SNP will do more for them than a London based party.

The extra concessions made to Scotland since devolution have shown that a stronger political voice has its benefits. Many people outside Scotland appear to resent this.

It is right for Scottish politicians to represent the people of Scotland to the best of their ability.

Again, what are you talking about?



I said:

Until Salmond shows us the figures, and I mean the actual costings i.e. income/expenditure for his little fancy, then it's a silly idea.

To which you replied:

You want to tell people that it is right that the UK can be this much in debt, but that Scotland must publish figures showing that it will have no debt if you are to agree to Scottish proposals for independance. Really?

I then replied:

You what?

Did I say at any point I want the figures and they had better show Scotland in the black or it's a no go? ANY figures would be a start from the SNP.

I didn't say Scotland had better not have any debt or the vote should be no.


So again I say

Take your blue and white Saltire blinkers off and read people's posts properly.

 

[Superficial]

The purpose of acknowleding the contributions of Scots in the World is not to 'bang the drum' for nationalists.

The purpose is to let the people of Scotland know that they are a capable people, with the ability to contribute on the world stage.

The purpose is to show that those who suggest that the people of Scotland are not capable of running their own affairs have no evidence for this false assertion. The facts show that the Scottish people are more than capable.

then those that do are scraping the barrel.

these achievements are very old and, as has been said, irrelevant. they are also, often times, exaggerated.

if you choose to go down that road at least bring something up to date

 

[RDM]

The purpose is to show that those who suggest that the people of Scotland are not capable of running their own affairs have no evidence for this false assertion. The facts show that the Scottish people are more than capable.

Who is actually saying that?

 

[Tephnos]

Surely that honour would instead fall to Newcomen(English) considering that Watt's design was an improvement on that? Watt's engine is undoubtedly important as far as the Industrial Revolution goes but it was one of several designs and it was the textile mills of Lancashire where it really started.



Whilst banging the drum for the Scots involved in the Industrial revolution is indeed patriotic, downplaying other nations involvement starts drifting in to nationalistic and not in a good way.

True, but this goes both ways. A lot of people like to downplay the Scottish involvement from what I see, which tends to bring up the overly 'Scots did everything blah blah' sentiment, which is of course not true.

 

[RDM]

True, but this goes both ways. A lot of people like to downplay the Scottish involvement from what I see, which tends to bring up the overly 'Scots did everything blah blah' sentiment, which is of course not true.

Again, not really been happening here. Personally I would say that the Industrial Revolution was a British thing rather than a Scottish or English thing, alluding to it is more a support for what we can do together as opposed to what we can do seperately.

 

[Gav]

The sooner Scotland becomes independent the better. It's about time we chose our own path in the world.

 

[yonderblue]

Could not agree more, Saor Alba.

 

[eddiemcgarrigle]

Vive la republica. Saor Alba.

 

[mollymoo]

The sooner Scotland becomes independent the better. It's about time we chose our own path in the world.

Could not agree more, Saor Alba.

Vive la republica. Saor Alba.

Y'all gonna be bitter people if it doesn't go your way

 

[[TW]Fox]

The sooner Scotland becomes independent the better. It's about time we chose our own path in the world.

All you'll choose is who you vote for - like now. Why is it the pro-independance people think the future would be some sort of utopia where they get to 'choose'? Really? You'll vote for a government who will choose what happens on your behalf - not you. You'll still be located in the same place in the world on the same landmass connected to the same England you hate speaking the same language driving on the same side of the road with the same weather shopping at the same shops etc etc...

Just like the English population doesn't choose its own path in the world now!

It seems all very romantic and appealing whilst you continue to believe that somehow independance means individual Scots being able to decide how the country works doesn't it...

 

[gizmoy2k]

Having read most of the thread I am seeing a few things that I knew already

We need to see more data, stats, figures, finance whatever for each side of the argument. It will be interesting to see how it is predicted things would pan out, although I doubt they go exactly as planned

Also the counter argument seems to be we're better together, but there is little evidence, facts or figures coming out from that side of the argument to prove that either. It seems to be a "just beacuse we will be" kinda attitude, all this comes from the politicians too

This kinda makes me think that England in particular are more fearful of breaking up the union than Scotland are going it alone, is there more for them to lose?

Lots left to run but im on the fence for now, a lot of people want answers now which is too soon, its going to take time to bring the facts together

It would be an interesting time to live in should it go through, just to see how much it changes the UK and who/where end up better off

 

[kitch9]

I don't think we should tax under 18 year olds then unless they have a say in how it is spent. Fair?

Not really an intelligent argument that.

 

[Muffin`]

Except they get around that by declaring him 'unfit for release' every 21 years, no?

Get around what? They'll follow the procedure to asses his mental state and make a decision but his sentence for the crimes will end at 21 years he could go free.

 

[Muffin`]

The sooner Scotland becomes independent the better. It's about time we chose our own path in the world.

Scotland will either have to join the Euro Zone or peg its self to the pound, if you think it's got 'no say' now, wait till you've grasped that little corker.

 

[Biohazard]

what do you mean?

Just what I said, that they are responsible for only around 10% of spending. After the recent extention of powers and responsibilities in the Scotland Bill, that will be around 15%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-12849111

I don't even know if that factors in the proposed Scotland bill.

It's also worth noting that both Scottish parliament and Scotland bill were projects initiated without the threat of Scottish independence so there has been a devolution agenda from Westminster at least since 1997.

You've lost me now, there are extentions of power beyond raising and spending but even then the amount of cash the SG is repsonsible for raising and spending is rather pathetic.

The devolution agenda has only ever been followed or looked at to stem nationalism, not for all involved but in terms of the Establishment many believe this to be the case.

Especially the 'relevations' about the Council of Europe pressing Westminster on its lack of Scots democracy.