SNP to break up Britian?

[DRZ]

I wonder what would happen to the smaller stuff. Obviously currency is a biggie but what about passports? I'd hope that we'd immediately withdraw all passports issued to those who wouldn't otherwise qualify for a British passport. Same thing for driving licences, invalidate the lot of them as the DVLA have no jurisdiction there any more.

As the UK isn't a signatory to Schengen and in any case Scotland wouldn't be in the EU, I'd like to see the immediate erection of border controls between England and Scotland, with Scottish citizens subject to the same entry restrictions as all other non-EU citizens.

If Scotland want to leave the Union they should reap the full force of what they sow and not continue to leech off England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

It would also be hilarious if the Queen failed to grant Royal Assent to whatever legislation allowed Scotland to leave, especially if the majority of the non-Scot Westminster were against the passing of such a bill...

 

[Biohazard]

Does this not mean a mandatory adoption of the Euro for Scotland?

No country can be forced into the Euro, and Scotland would need its own currency to lodge into the ERM, and even the prerequisites for those mechanisms are optional.

 

[Biohazard]

So the politicians will be writing up which powers they want to grant themselves after the electorate has already irrevocably committed to having to live with it whatever it may be.

Thank goodness politicians are never corrupt, power hungry, self serving or likely to offer a choice of two bad options or I'd be concerned.

You are a bit paranoid about the intent of the proposed convention;

The process by which Scotland adopts a written constitution is almost as important as its content. The process of agreeing and enacting the constitution should ensure that it reflects the fundamental constitutional truth - that the people, rather than politicians or state institutions, are the sovereign authority in Scotland. The Scottish Government proposes that a newly elected independent Scottish Parliament should convene a
constitutional convention to draft the written constitution. In taking this path, Scotland will be following in the footsteps of many other countries, not least the United States of America, whose constitutional convention in 1787 drafted the Constitution of the United States.

As the post-independence Scottish constitutional convention will convene under the auspices of the Scottish Parliament, the remit and membership of the convention should be a matter for the Parliament to determine. The Parliament should also determine the process by which the constitution produced by the convention will become the constitution of Scotland.

The Scottish Government believes a constitutional convention should ensure a participative and inclusive process where the people of Scotland, as well as politicians, civic society organisations, business interests, trade unions and others, will have a direct role in shaping the constitution. We therefore propose that international best practice and the practical experience of other countries and territories should be considered and taken into account in advance of the determination of the process for the constitutional
convention. In the last decade, citizen-led assemblies and constitutional conventions have been convened in British Columbia (2004), the Netherlands (2006), Ontario (2007) and Iceland (2010). In 2012, Ireland announced it will hold a citizen-led constitutional convention to review various constitutional issues. The Irish convention met for the first time in December 2012.

The Scottish Government will be just one of many voices which will contribute to the debate and help to shape the content of Scotland’s written constitution. However, there are certain provisions that we believe should be included. In particular:

Everyone in Scotland should be entitled to equality of opportunity and to live free of discrimination and prejudice. Everyone should be entitled to public services and to a standard of living that, as a minimum, secures dignity and self-respect and provides the opportunity for them to realise their full potential both as individuals and as members of wider society. The Scottish Parliament has promoted equality and given rights to vulnerable citizens (for example, by putting in place the most progressive homelessness legislation in Europe). Equally, the Scottish Government has taken steps to protect the principles of free education and health care. The constitution should therefore provide a collective expression of the positive values
that the people share and a constitutional convention should consider how to further embed equality and human rights within the constitution and the extent to which the people of Scotland should have constitutional rights in relation to issues such as welfare, pensions, health care and education.

Scotland’s natural resources are vital to the future success of an independent Scotland. We believe a constitutional convention should examine how principles on climate change, the environment and the sustainable use of Scotland’s natural resources should be constitutionally protected to embed Scotland’s commitment to sustainable development and responsible and sustained economic growth.

We believe that nuclear weapons have no place in Scotland. We will therefore advocate that a written constitution should include a constitutional ban on nuclear weapons being based in Scotland.

Many countries around the world place constitutional controls on the use of military power. We believe that a constitutional convention should examine the war powers of an independent Scottish Government and ensure a role for an independent Scottish Parliament in monitoring the use of those powers.

It will be a citizen led forum for drafting the constitution.

 

[StriderX]

I wonder what would happen to the smaller stuff. Obviously currency is a biggie but what about passports? I'd hope that we'd immediately withdraw all passports issued to those who wouldn't otherwise qualify for a British passport. Same thing for driving licences, invalidate the lot of them as the DVLA have no jurisdiction there any more.

As the UK isn't a signatory to Schengen and in any case Scotland wouldn't be in the EU, I'd like to see the immediate erection of border controls between England and Scotland, with Scottish citizens subject to the same entry restrictions as all other non-EU citizens.

If Scotland want to leave the Union they should reap the full force of what they sow and not continue to leech off England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

It would also be hilarious if the Queen failed to grant Royal Assent to whatever legislation allowed Scotland to leave, especially if the majority of the non-Scot Westminster were against the passing of such a bill...

Sour grapes?

I sense some.

 

[Macro]

No country can be forced into the Euro, and Scotland would need its own currency to lodge into the ERM, and even the prerequisites for those mechanisms are optional.

But membership of the EU could (and currently does) mandate adoption of the Euro as a precondition?

 

[Biohazard]

I wonder what would happen to the smaller stuff. Obviously currency is a biggie but what about passports? I'd hope that we'd immediately withdraw all passports issued to those who wouldn't otherwise qualify for a British passport. Same thing for driving licences, invalidate the lot of them as the DVLA have no jurisdiction there any more.

As the UK isn't a signatory to Schengen and in any case Scotland wouldn't be in the EU, I'd like to see the immediate erection of border controls between England and Scotland, with Scottish citizens subject to the same entry restrictions as all other non-EU citizens.

With machine gun posts and barbed wire too?

If Scotland want to leave the Union they should reap the full force of what they sow and not continue to leech off England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Scotland is a net contributor to the UK, and I'm not quite sure what's going to get us if we vote for independence other than scathing sentiments in newspapers and internet forums.

It would also be hilarious if the Queen failed to grant Royal Assent to whatever legislation allowed Scotland to leave, especially if the majority of the non-Scot Westminster were against the passing of such a bill...

I don't think she'd be so silly, I think she rather likes having the Scottish Crown.

 

[Biohazard]

But membership of the EU could (and currently does) mandate adoption of the Euro as a precondition?

It doesn't. The EU and their member states have made clear that it isn't a precursor, and there are many examples that you could follow.

 

[DRZ]

With machine gun posts and barbed wire too?



Scotland is a net contributor to the UK, and I'm not quite sure what's going to get us if we vote for independence other than scathing sentiments in newspapers and internet forums.



I don't think she'd be so silly, I think she rather likes having the Scottish Crown.

You're not North Korea but you shouldn't be granted unrestricted entry. We have tight border controls at airports, sea ports and the Channel Tunnel. Why should the border with Scotland be any different?

Why should you continue to use UK infrastructure (passports, driving licences etc) when you're no longer UK citizens?

As for the role of the Queen, your constitutional babble makes no provision (that I have seen) for the continuance of the Queen as the head of state there.

I genuinely feel for the reasonable people of Scotland. The imbecile nationalists are going to take Scotland to 3rd world status inside a generation.

 

[Macro]

You are a bit paranoid about the intent of the proposed convention;



It will be a citizen led forum for drafting the constitution.

Not really paranoid, more interested to see Scots are still being asked to vote for some vague promises of "things will be better, honest" without even a clear view of what an independent Scottish constitution and political mechanism would look like.

As the post-independence Scottish constitutional convention will convene under the auspices of the Scottish Parliament, the remit and membership of the convention should be a matter for the Parliament to determine. The Parliament should also determine the process by which the constitution produced by the convention will become the constitution of Scotland.

Doesn't sound very citizen lead to me, more like "the politicians will chose who can take part in the convention and we'll listen to opinions before we tell you what we're going to implement as we believe the vote for independence gave us the mandate to do so." Interesting to see no mention of the judiciary in the establishment of a constitution to ensure citizens rights are safeguarded.

 

[Biohazard]

You're not North Korea but you shouldn't be granted unrestricted entry. We have tight border controls at airports, sea ports and the Channel Tunnel. Why should the border with Scotland be any different?

No, but according to Cameron, we might get nuked by North Korea!

We don't have very tight border controls btw.

Why should you continue to use UK infrastructure (passports, driving licences etc) when you're no longer UK citizens?

Well, we partly own them, but Scottish institutions will replace those that cannot provide shared service.

As for the role of the Queen, your constitutional babble makes no provision (that I have seen) for the continuance of the Queen as the head of state there.

2.4 of the Whitepaper.

The constitutional platform will enable the transfer of sovereignty from Westminster
to Scotland. In particular, it will:

*give the Scottish Parliament powers to declare independent statehood for Scotland in the name of the sovereign people of Scotland;

*remove the central effects of the 1707 Treaty of Union and acknowledge the end of the power of Westminster to make laws for Scotland;

*provide in law for the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs;

*extend the powers of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government into all policy areas whilst retaining the separation of powers between executive and legislature;

*provide for the transition of Scotland’s status in the EU from membership as part of the UK to independent membership;

*consolidate the protection of human rights in Scotland so that all ECHR human rights are protected as they are for devolved matters under the Scotland Act 1998, bringing Scotland fully into the European mainstream of human rights protection;

*provide for the continuity of the monarchy in Scotland;

[continued]

I genuinely feel for the reasonable people of Scotland. The imbecile nationalists are going to take Scotland to 3rd world status inside a generation.

Since they have provided the best administration in devolution, and arguably in decades for Scotland, I don't think Scotland is going to slip into the chaos you describe.

 

[Biohazard]

Not really paranoid, more interested to see Scots are still being asked to vote for some vague promises of "things will be better, honest" without even a clear view of what an independent Scottish constitution and political mechanism would look like.

No constitution can be described as "things will be better, honest". It's a set of principles and values, and I happen to believe that Scotland can achieve anything it reasonably sets its mind too.

Doesn't sound very citizen lead to me, more like "the politicians will chose who can take part in the convention and we'll listen to opinions before we tell you what we're going to implement as we believe the vote for independence gave us the mandate to do so." Interesting to see no mention of the judiciary in the establishment of a constitution to ensure citizens rights are safeguarded.

I think the principles that the Scottish Government wishes to take forward as a starting point into the convention would be broadly acceptably to the vast majority of Scots, but again the convention will be as broad as possible in scope to encompass the general feeling of Scots about their rights, obligations and direction in an independence Scotland.

2.11
Scotland already has many of the institutions that a modern independent state needs: a modern parliament elected by proportional representation, a government, civil service, independent judiciary and legal system. The constitutional platform will give Scotland the remaining institutions it needs to function as an independent country.

 

[Macro]

It doesn't. The EU and their member states have made clear that it isn't a precursor, and there are many examples that you could follow.

Maybe, but all countries joining the EU since 1993 have had to commit to join the Euro in due course. So no, it's no a precursor but is still likely to be a mandated consequence.

 

[DRZ]

Actually just realised something... George Galloway would cease to be a British citizen following such a move.

That would mean he would no longer be allowed to be an MP.

Quick, lets get this show on the road. An opportunity to get rid of that Galloway moron? Too good to be true!

 

[Macro]

Actually just realised something... George Galloway would cease to be a British citizen following such a move.

That would mean he would no longer be allowed to be an MP.

Quick, lets get this show on the road. An opportunity to get rid of that Galloway moron? Too good to be true!

lol

 

[Biohazard]

Maybe, but all country's joining the EU since 1993 have had to commit to join the Euro in due course. So no, it's no a precursor but is still likely to be a mandated consequence.

The first is the Czech prime minister, Petr Necas, speaking at a press conference after the visit of European Council president Herman Van Rompuy:

“It’s the conscious policy of my government not to set a firm date for euro adoption, because previous governments set target dates and they were never met. So it’s a question of the Czech Republic’s reputation and credibility. Second, in the current economic climate, a flexible rate of exchange for the Czech crown is an advantage, not a disadvantage, for a small, export-driven economy such as ours.

Entering the eurozone must be advantageous for the Czech economy. Only at that point will it be realistic to talk about adopting the euro.”

The article then notes:

“Mr Necas added that the situation in the eurozone had changed so dramatically since the Czechs joined the EU that he would be in favour of a referendum on euro adoption – a view he said was shared by President Zeman.

Herman Van Rompuy for his part stressed that the Czechs could only join when they felt the time was right – the ball, he said, was very much in their court.

In support, a direct quote from Mr Van Rompuy follows:

“The prime minister added in his statement that it is even an obligation to join the euro, so that is nothing new. But you have to meet all the criteria. At this stage the Czech Republic is not meeting all the criteria, so the problem is not a problem today. But even if you meet the criteria, then of course the Czech Republic has to make its own decision in its own constitutional order. So I will not interfere in this internal debate; it’s up to the Czech Republic to make up its mind.“

They joined in 2004.

The Euro is optional, gone are the days of EU diktat in that respect.

 

[Biohazard]

Actually just realised something... George Galloway would cease to be a British citizen following such a move.

That would mean he would no longer be allowed to be an MP.

Quick, lets get this show on the road. An opportunity to get rid of that Galloway moron? Too good to be true!

He would be allowed to be an MP unless Westminster is going to bar all foreign nationals from holding public office?

What would happen is 50 odd MP's - irrespective of their nationality - elected from Scottish Westminster constituencies would get P45's.

That would mostly be Labour politicians, so there are vested interests on both sides of the coin.

You'd be stuck with Galloway as long as people in England vote for him, I'm afraid.

 

[DRZ]

He would be allowed to be an MP unless Westminster is going to bar all foreign nationals from holding public office?

What would happen is 50 odd MP's - irrespective of their nationality - elected from Scottish Westminster constituencies would get P45's.

That would mostly be Labour politicians, so there are vested interests on both sides of the coin.

You'd be stuck with Galloway as long as people in England vote for him, I'm afraid.

Err no, you must be "over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland."

Curse the fact that Scotland will continue to be in the commonwealth. We should kick you out just to lose Galloway.

 

[Biohazard]

Err no, you must be "over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland."

Curse the fact that Scotland will continue to be in the commonwealth. We should kick you out just to lose Galloway.

Scotland would essentially co-own the Commonwealth, but as Galloway was rejected by the electorate at Holyrood then voted in down in England means he stays with you!

I don't know how to feel about that in all honesty.

 

[Castiel]

He would be allowed to be an MP unless Westminster is going to bar all foreign nationals from holding public office?

You'd be stuck with Galloway as long as people in England vote for him, I'm afraid.

If Galloway ceases to be a British Citizen, a Citizen of the Commonwealth or Republic of Ireland and as the SNP has not given any indication on what status newly independent Scots will have in relation to the commonwealth or whether they wish to negotiate the same terms as the Republic of Ireland it is not necessarily true that Galloway would be able to continue as an MP regardless of whether people would vote for him or not.

Again, more definitive statements for undefined positions seems to be the order of the day.

 

[Castiel]

Scotland would essentially co-own the Commonwealth, but as Galloway was rejected by the electorate at Holyrood then voted in down in England means he stays with you!

I don't know how to feel about that in all honesty.

You don't own the "commonwealth"....it is a cooperative intergovernmental forum, it doesn't have any ownership...it has membership.

And as we have no idea just what an independent Scotland will do or be permitted to do in this respect, although they are eligible to join under the Edinburgh Criteria (not necessarily the others however) then you cannot make such definitive statements.