Spanish Grand Prix 2012, Catalunya - Race 5/20

leaskovski · 14 May 2012 at 16:10

Owenb said:
Barcelona is usually viewed as the real test of a car's WCC/WDC potential so I guess we can take it that Williams have now the best car in F1(probably by a big margin as I doubt Maldonado is in Alonso's league).

lol, just lol.

How can you compare the two drivers? They have never raced in the same series before or been team mates. The fact is that Massa is not very good, and thus Alonso is going to seem like a god. Yes, Alonso is a good driver, and I would have a side bet of a few quid on him winning the championship this year, however, so say that him and PM are in different leagues... well I would say that show little respect for a good driver. Just because he has had to pay his way into the sport does not give you the right to belittle him.

Demon · 14 May 2012 at 16:11

tummelv said:
Excellent post. I completely agree with everything you said there.

I have to say I don't!

All the teams say the tyres are the key variable and they can't get them/keep them in the operating window at all this year, backed up by my own eyes looking at the various performances tells me the tyres are way too critical...

All the reasons give above sound valid, but are just the same hypothesizing as the rest of us are doing, so I'm going by what the teams and drivers are saying.. It's all about the tyres, fail to get them in the operating zone and no matter what innovation or other aero advantages that would have seen your right in other years, it won't matter..

Skeeter · 14 May 2012 at 16:12

mattyg said:
Isn't there a Webber rumour for a 1 year deal before they take on senna.

Senna? Lol, where did that come from? Last I heard was a 1 year Webber rumour. Before that was Perez, then before that they apparently approached Button.

Never heard Senna mentioned at all, and can't see why they would be interested in him anyway?

pcoltrane · 14 May 2012 at 16:29

Demon said:
I have to say I don't!

All the teams say the tyres are the key variable and they can't get them/keep them in the operating window at all this year, backed up by my own eyes looking at the various performances tells me the tyres are way too critical...

All the reasons give above sound valid, but are just the same hypothesizing as the rest of us are doing, so I'm going by what the teams and drivers are saying.. It's all about the tyres, fail to get them in the operating zone and no matter what innovation or other aero advantages that would have seen your right in other years, it won't matter..

Teams citing tyres as the key variable is a common theme but not unique to this season or these tyres.
How many times in the past have we heard the same even on the bridgestones? Go back further and remember the same in the Michelin vs Bridgestone era ... or even further back with Pirelli qualifying tyres etc.

For example and not limited to: the erratic performance of the Brawn in parts of their championship winning season where they couldn't switch the tyres on (cue weaving on the straight even in the middle of the race) ... or like Raikonen suddenly being significantly slower than Massa in 2008 at times when he didn't get the tyres working.

Tyres and getting them working optimally have always been a key factor in F1. Yes the Pirellis may be a little more difficult than some to hit the sweet spot (partly as they are relatively new to the teams and with testing so limited they have little data), but the main fundamental reason we have so many different winners and such unpredictable racing this year is due to the close performance of all the top teams.

Glaucus · 14 May 2012 at 16:29

Demon said:
I have to say I don't!

All the teams say the tyres are the key variable and they can't get them/keep them in the operating window at all this year, backed up by my own eyes looking at the various performances tells me the tyres are way too critical...

All the reasons give above sound valid, but are just the same hypothesizing as the rest of us are doing, so I'm going by what the teams and drivers are saying.. It's all about the tyres, fail to get them in the operating zone and no matter what innovation or other aero advantages that would have seen your right in other years, it won't matter..

And why do you think set up and thus tyre temp is so critical? Would it because the cars are so neck and neck. The tyre "issue" has been so blowen out of proportion. It's stratageys, go flat out and stop loads, go medium and stop medium, go slowish and try a two stoper like hammy. This is no different to any other year. But rather than a 1 or two stop, it's now a 2-4stopper, depending what you want to do.

dannyjo22 · 14 May 2012 at 16:33

No ones going flat out, neither the cars or the drivers are being tested.

It's drive medium and and stop 3 times or drive with the radio on and an arm out the window and stop twice.

Glaucus · 14 May 2012 at 16:36

What total BS, the fact drivers are leaving the race track and crashing shows driver and cars are very much being tested tithe limit. Nothing is new about this season compared to yesterday's championships. Other than so many teams being so close together.

If you are going to go that route you should be going after engine rpm, engine and gearbox limits those are limiting the cars far more. Everyone has same tyres and have to extract the best perfomamce they can out of them, no different than the last several decades. Or do you forget Ferrari developing with bridgestones etc.

pcoltrane · 14 May 2012 at 16:41

dannyjo22 said:
No ones going flat out, neither the cars or the drivers are being tested.

It's drive medium and and stop 3 times or drive with the radio on and an arm out the window and stop twice.

LOL! An amusing image, but I disagree.

Believe me the drivers are pushing hard as hell every to maximise their performance on every lap of the GP. Nobody is simply cruising out there.

They are perhaps having to drive within certain constraints in certain phases of the GP - ie not sliding or generating too much wheelspin as with the relatively high degredation you take too much life out of the tyre. That certainly doesn't mean the cars and drivers aren't being tested. In fact on the contrary - if anything it is testing the drivers far harder as their mistakes or lack of precision are being punished more.

deuse · 14 May 2012 at 16:50

Glaucus said:
What total BS, the fact drivers are leaving the race track and crashing shows driver and cars are very much being tested tithe limit.

Where the hell did you get that from?
Alonso\Lewis\Button\Webber\Vimto\Rosberg ect all say they CAN'T push themselves or thier cars to the limit.
A when any team manager was asked this weekend about the tires they just smiled...that should tell you all.

Glaucus · 14 May 2012 at 16:53

Of course they can, they are why do you think they go off the track? Because they have gone passed theirs or Tge cars limit. The tyres are very much part of the car and always haven been. You are simply talking nonsense.

Mr Jack · 14 May 2012 at 16:54

dannyjo22 said:
No ones going flat out, neither the cars or the drivers are being tested.

It's drive medium and and stop 3 times or drive with the radio on and an arm out the window and stop twice.

Oh twaddle.

The only thing you've got right is that drivers aren't going flat out the whole time. But looking after the tyres takes skill and concentration, especially when you're battling with other drivers. Get it right and you can wring a few more laps out of a set; get it badly wrong and you can end up like Kimi in China.

It's a different mind set to some other seasons; more cerebral, more tactical and, in my view, more interesting. We're already seeing how the best drivers are able to adapt to the new demands - with Lewis being the case in point.

deuse · 14 May 2012 at 16:58

Glaucus said:
Of course they can, they are why do you think they go off the track? Because they have gone passed theirs or Tge cars limit. The tyres are very much part of the car and always haven been. You are simply talking nonsense.

Hold on..you know better then F1 racing drivers now? when was the last race you drove in?

Glaucus · 14 May 2012 at 17:01

deuse said:
Hold on..you know better then F1 racing drivers now? when was the last race you drove in?

F1 drivers moan when it's not going their way, if the car isn't designed to take advantage of the tyre and/or they can't set the car yup correctly. That is not the tyres fault, it's there's. If they are cruising round why is anyone crashing? Or putting wheels on grass? It's all nonsense.

If the tyres are so **** why has hammilton been able to get them in sweet spot every qaulifying and race.

The tyres are no different to no refueling, you have to optimise.

Mr Men · 14 May 2012 at 17:43

MooMoo444 said:
So, who can explain to me why there is such a void between Massa and Alonso.

Their cars can't be that different.

Why are Ferrari still holding on to Massa?

Point wise its a big gap, race pace it's probably not so dramatic.

Jenson is probably being beaten more on race pace by his team mate than Massa is.

arknor · 14 May 2012 at 17:47

Glaucus said:
What total BS, the fact drivers are leaving the race track and crashing shows driver and cars are very much being tested tithe limit. Nothing is new about this season compared to yesterday's championships. Other than so many teams being so close together.

it » Hamilton: "Excellent. That's good to know."

Hamilton: "I'm saving tyres."

Pit » Hamilton: "This pace is okay for now."

Hamilton: "Please let me know if the pace I'm doing is acceptable."

PUSHING TO THE LIMIT! of the tyres sure.... not the cars though

Glaucus · 14 May 2012 at 17:50

And? The tyres are part of the car, what part of the car do you want pushing to the limit? It can't be engine, can't be gear box. It has been tyres for a while that is your only contact with the Tarmac.
Saving tyres to do one less stop is not a new phanomina, it's been in f1 for a long time. Bar a few seasons.

Thomas. PLease. · 14 May 2012 at 17:52

Mr Men said:
Point wise its a big gap, race pace it's probably not so dramatic.

Jenson is probably being beaten more on race pace by his team mate than Massa is.

Catalunya has been the first race I would say Jenson has really fully been beaten on race pace. In Australia, Jenson plain drove away from Lewis. In the Malaysian GP Jenson was ahead but had the accident with Karthikeyan. In the Chinese GP Jenson finished ahead of Lewis despite qualifying far behind him. Possibly Lewis was matching Jenson's race pace in Bahrain, but hardly making him look slow like Alonso has done to Massa ALL season long.

Mr Men · 14 May 2012 at 17:54

Saving fuel is just as bad as saving tyres IMO, they are not pushing when they have to conserve fuel but nobody complains about that.

Mr Men · 14 May 2012 at 17:56

Thomas. PLease. said:
but hardly making him look slow like Alonso has done to Massa ALL season long.

Massa was 8 seconds and 5 seconds behind Alonso in Bahrain and China hardly looking slow.

dannyjo22 · 14 May 2012 at 18:00

arknor said:
it » Hamilton: "Excellent. That's good to know."

Hamilton: "I'm saving tyres."

Pit » Hamilton: "This pace is okay for now."

Hamilton: "Please let me know if the pace I'm doing is acceptable."

PUSHING TO THE LIMIT! of the tyres sure.... not the cars though

Exactly pushing the tyres not themselves or the car. They crash because of the cliff, the unpredictable loss of grip not because they are pushing the car or themselves.

Of course though the arm chair experts know more than the growing list of drivers saying exactly the same.