Spanish Grand Prix 2012, Catalunya - Race 5/20

[Thomas. PLease.]

Massa was 8 seconds and 5 seconds behind Alonso in Bahrain and China hardly looking slow.

Ok, but you can't seriously say Jenson's race pace compared to Lewis' is as bad as Massa's has been compared to Alonso. Lewis' best result has been third, Jenson has won, and come second. Massa's best race result has been 9th, where Alonso has taken a victory and looked like taking others.

 

[dannyjo22]

Saving fuel is just as bad as saving tyres IMO, they are not pushing when they have to conserve fuel but nobody complains about that.

Drivers? Yeah fair point but lots of people on here where last year and the year before

 

[Mr Men]

Ok, but you can't seriously say Jenson's race pace compared to Lewis' is as bad as Massa's has been compared to Alonso. Lewis' best result has been third, Jenson has won, and come second. Massa's best race result has been 9th!

Have you compared them before dismissing it?

 

[Thomas. PLease.]

Have you compared them before dismissing it?

I don't understand what you are getting at?

 

[Mr Men]

I don't understand what you are getting at?

IMO Jenson is being beaten in race pace by Lewis, just as badly as Massa is by Alonso.

 

[sunama]

Stuff Hamilton - if an Evil Lotus or a Sauber wins at Monaco, ...

Hehehe. I like that, "Evil Lotus".
I keep calling them Renault, as I feel that the Lotus name has been bought and means very little. In actually, they are Renault.

But I like, "Evil Lotus" and may use this in future.

 

[Thomas. PLease.]

IMO Jenson is being beaten in race pace by Lewis, just as badly as Massa is by Alonso.

Massa has barely threatened to finish in the points. Jenson has won a race, in which he undeniably drove away from his team mate. He's demonstrated this on more than one occasion. I fail to share your opinion.

 

[pcoltrane]

Exactly pushing the tyres not themselves or the car. They crash because of the cliff, the unpredictable loss of grip not because they are pushing the car or themselves.

Of course though the arm chair experts know more than the growing list of drivers saying exactly the same.

All I see are very selective quotes rather than evidence of all the drivers feeling this way. As far as I am aware the only driver who has clearly expressed his displeasure with the tyres is Schumacher ... however drivers arefar from impartial beings. Part of the skill of being the best driver is doing what it takes to give yourself an advantage (or neutralising a disadantage) including lobbying to get the rules/tyres/circuits changed! Schumacher himself has a history of this - and motive too since his team mate is doing a better job with the tyres than him.

I suspect there are mixed feeling up and down the grid among the drivers -generally depending on how they are performing! The default setting on a driver is "whinge" unless perhaps they are winning!

Incidentally - I assume you have a long motorsport CV yourself then?

 

[sunama]

Massa was 8 seconds and 5 seconds behind Alonso in Bahrain and China hardly looking slow.

In fairness, Massa did get lapped in the last race, by his team-mate.
Also, don't forget that Bahrain is Massa's strongest circuit. I actually was expecting him to out quality Alonso at Bahrain, but alas, even on his strongest track, he still couldn't square up to Alonso.

In China, Massa did well. 5s off of Alonso is actually a pretty great result for any driver in F1. That's the sort of distance I would expect Vettel to finish behind Alonso.

 

[sunama]

Massa has barely threatened to finish in the points. Jenson has won a race, ...

Button is in the best car (overall), on the track.
Before Spain, the Ferrari was believed to be the 4th or 5th best car.
Its a little unfair when you are comparing Massa with Alonso, as Alonso is at the absolute peak of his powers and is unquestionably the best driver in F1, in the form of his life.

Don't get me wrong, Button is better than Massa. No doubt about that, but for anybody to imply that Massa is some waste of space, is wrong.

BTW, not much has been said about MSc. Rosberg has 41 points, while MSc has 2 points. He is proving to be an absolute disaster. IMO he is way past his best and as I've been saying for the last 18 months, that he should be advised (as no one would dare sack him) to give a new/young driver a chance

We now have Kimi as a perfect comparison. Kimi (after 2 years away from F1) is consistently beating his team-mate, while MSc is being spanked by his team-mate.

I'd be interested to know what Arknor thinks as he is a die-hard MSc/Mercedes fan.

 

[arknor]

As far as I am aware the only driver who has clearly expressed his displeasure with the tyres is Schumache

read webbers comments after the race

and listen to all the pit radios , its always saving tyres , saving tyres , car is understeering , car is understeering. stick with it weve got to save tyres.

 

[Demon]

Teams citing tyres as the key variable is a common theme but not unique to this season or these tyres.
How many times in the past have we heard the same even on the bridgestones? Go back further and remember the same in the Michelin vs Bridgestone era ... or even further back with Pirelli qualifying tyres etc.

For example and not limited to: the erratic performance of the Brawn in parts of their championship winning season where they couldn't switch the tyres on (cue weaving on the straight even in the middle of the race) ... or like Raikonen suddenly being significantly slower than Massa in 2008 at times when he didn't get the tyres working.

Tyres and getting them working optimally have always been a key factor in F1. Yes the Pirellis may be a little more difficult than some to hit the sweet spot (partly as they are relatively new to the teams and with testing so limited they have little data), but the main fundamental reason we have so many different winners and such unpredictable racing this year is due to the close performance of all the top teams.

And why do you think set up and thus tyre temp is so critical? Would it because the cars are so neck and neck. The tyre "issue" has been so blowen out of proportion. It's stratageys, go flat out and stop loads, go medium and stop medium, go slowish and try a two stoper like hammy. This is no different to any other year. But rather than a 1 or two stop, it's now a 2-4stopper, depending what you want to do.

The massive (and I mean in F1 terms, massive) variability of drivers qualifying and race pace between races clearly shows that there is an overwhelming dominating variable that teams haven't had to face for a long time.

It's rare to get instances like Nico/Pastor where one is 1.3 seconds quicker one week, then 1 second slower 2 races later, that variability is an absolute chasm of performance in these circles..

I agree that in theory the lack of EBD should have levelled the playing field, but if the tyres where no different to last year and not significant, then I'd expect consistency of performance throughout with minor variations, this is far from what I'm seeing..

 

[Mr Jack]

Before Spain, the Ferrari was believed to be the 4th or 5th best car.
Its a little unfair when you are comparing Massa with Alonso, as Alonso is at the absolute peak of his powers and is unquestionably the best driver in F1, in the form of his life.

Don't get me wrong, Button is better than Massa. No doubt about that, but for anybody to imply that Massa is some waste of space, is wrong.

I have never seen any driver in a top team so hammered by their team mate as Massa is being by Alonso. Even Heikki in 2008/9 was closer to Hamilton than Massa is to Alonso. Alonso has scored points at every race and two podiums, Massa has scraped out a 9th place. His car might have been 4th or 5th best but that doesn't explain Massa sitting 17th in the placings. It's not like he's been the unlucky one getting incidents pilled up on him; he's simply failed to deliver in both quali and race.

He's not managed to get into the final quali session for a single race this year. That's abysmal, even given Ferrari's early lack of form.

Ferrari should get rid, and bring in someone worthy of that seat.

BTW, not much has been said about MSc. Rosberg has 41 points, while MSc has 2 points. He is proving to be an absolute disaster. IMO he is way past his best and as I've been saying for the last 18 months, that he should be advised (as no one would dare sack him) to give a new/young driver a chance

The margin between Schumacher and Rosberg has been greatly exaggerated by a string of bad luck for Schumi. I think "absolute disaster" is overstating it, but he's surely not the driver he once was.

 

[pcoltrane]

read webbers comments after the race

and listen to all the pit radios , its always saving tyres , saving tyres , car is understeering , car is understeering. stick with it weve got to save tyres.

Webbers post race comments weren't particularly scathing of the tyres:

"We had to pit and when you’re out of position here it’s tough – you have to look after your tyres and when you catch people your tyres get killed, so it’s chicken and egg. If you push past them, you have to pit earlier and commit to another stop"

But funnily enough - they come straight after a race where he failed to make progess...
However other drivers (Lewis + Kobayashi) did manage to pass people without killing their tyres.

 

[Demon]

Webbers post race comments weren't particularly scathing of the tyres:

"We had to pit and when you’re out of position here it’s tough – you have to look after your tyres and when you catch people your tyres get killed, so it’s chicken and egg. If you push past them, you have to pit earlier and commit to another stop"

But funnily enough - they come straight after a race where he failed to make progess...
However other drivers (Lewis + Kobayashi) did manage to pass people without killing their tyres.

Button wasn't either..

http://en.espnf1.com/spain/motorsport/story/78233.html

 

[Glaucus]

They don't crash because of the cliff, they are crashing before the cliff.

 

[Mr Men]

Massa has barely threatened to finish in the points. Jenson has won a race, in which he undeniably drove away from his team mate. He's demonstrated this on more than one occasion. I fail to share your opinion.

Cling to Australia if need be, where they finish is irrelevant considering the Ferrari is a poorer car to McLaren. I am comparing Jenson v Lewis in the same machine and Alonso v Massa, not Jenson v Massa as that is pointless.

 

[Mr Men]

In fairness, Massa did get lapped in the last race, by his team-mate.
Also, don't forget that Bahrain is Massa's strongest circuit. I actually was expecting him to out quality Alonso at Bahrain, but alas, even on his strongest track, he still couldn't square up to Alonso.

In China, Massa did well. 5s off of Alonso is actually a pretty great result for any driver in F1. That's the sort of distance I would expect Vettel to finish behind Alonso.

Yeah he did, a drive through off course never helped and missing out on the top ten by 4 tenths behind Alonso in Q2, it really is not a massive gap considering Alonso is simply much better than Massa, I just don't understand those who think Massa should challenge Alonso on a regular basis. They either seriously over rate Massa or seriously under rate Alonso.

 

[arknor]

I
The margin between Schumacher and Rosberg has been greatly exaggerated by a string of bad luck for Schumi. I think "absolute disaster" is overstating it, but he's surely not the driver he once was.

its not schumachers pace that is the problem
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=868&graf=3&dr1=Michael Schumacher&dr2=Nico Rosberg

badluck , techincal failures and wheel nuts

schumacher really needs to stop putting faith in drivers like senna and kobayashi doing what he would expect alonso , hamilton , vettel etc to do though

 

[dannyjo22]

Incidentally - I assume you have a long motorsport CV yourself then?

No but I'm not the one claiming the drivers are telling lies and discounting their information on the tyres because it suits my argument. Clearly people on here know better.