SPL season 2012-13

[div0]

It was pointing out the statistics involved in "Sell-Out Saturday", which was a campaign involving SPL clubs, no? Is this not an SPL thread?

There was nothing thinly disguised about it - I specifically used the attendance at Ibrox last midweek to put a bit of perspective on the figures. It was not pointing out that Rangers still got lots of fans to their game. It was showing the opposite, that despite a campaign in place to try and increase attendances throughout the SPL, with the exception of Aberdeen (although some way short of a sell-out, they did get 2,500 more than they did for the 1st home game last season), it was a complete flop. Why is that not worthy of highlighting and discussing?

I didn't see the posts before they were deleted, but from what you've said; considering the clear warnings at the start of the thread, would it not have just made sense to focus solely on SPL attendances and avoid any mention of Rangers at all.

It's clear that the mods are trying to avoid any discussions (in this thread) about what has gone on at Rangers over the summer.

Just make sure that your posts are entirely about the SPL and don't tread on dodgy ground, then there won't be a problem. If people push things, even unintentionally, then eventually the whole thread will just be removed.

 

[Five.Stars]

I didn't see the posts before they were deleted, but from what you've said; considering the clear warnings at the start of the thread, would it not have just made sense to focus solely on SPL attendances and avoid any mention of Rangers at all.

It's clear that the mods are trying to avoid any discussions (in this thread) about what has gone on at Rangers over the summer.

Just make sure that your posts are entirely about the SPL and don't tread on dodgy ground, then there won't be a problem. If people push things, even unintentionally, then eventually the whole thread will just be removed.

Fair enough...

Sell-Out Saturday a success?

Given as percentage figures of stadiums capacities:

Aberdeen - Ross County (63.1% sell-out)

Dundee - St. Mirren (50.4% sell-out)

Inverness CT - Kilmarnock (38.8% sell-out)

Motherwell - St. Johnstone (32.7% sell-out)

The combined attendance for all 4 games on "Sell-Out Saturday" was 27,496 out of a potential 55,550 meaning there were 28,054 empty seats across the 4 games. So in percentage terms, "Sell-Out Saturday" was a 49.5% sell-out.

Now if we take Sundays Edinburgh derby into account, it improves things slightly, although not dramatically. The attendance for that was 12,887. Easter Road has a capacity of 20,421 meaning Sundays game was a 63.1% sell-out. This raises the total combined attendance for the weekends fixtures to 40,383 out of a total potential 75,971. Giving a total sell-out percentage of 53.2%

Out of the 5 host clubs, Dundee were not in the SPL last season, but the 4 other host clubs attendances in their 1st home fixtures last season were as follows:

Aberdeen 10,001

Inverness 3,600

Motherwell 4,190

Hibernian 12,523

So... Aberdeen managed to sell 4,009 extra tickets. Inverness CT sold 588 tickets less this season. Motherwell were 300 tickets up. Hibernian were 364 tickets up. So Aberdeen could argue a success from the campaign. With an average ticket price of £25 (estimated), they would have netted an extra £100,225. Inverness would have made a £14,700 loss compared to their 1st home game last term. Motherwell would have made an additional £7500 and finally Hibs would have made an extra £9,100.

Do those figures make the "Sell-Out Saturday" campaign a success? I would argue that Aberdeen would think so. They need to maintain attendances at that level though. Other than that, I would say it was a failure.

Discuss...

 

[jamesy505]

Fair enough...

Sell-Out Saturday a success?

Do those figures make the "Sell-Out Saturday" campaign a success? I would argue that Aberdeen would think so. They need to maintain attendances at that level though. Other than that, I would say it was a failure.

Discuss...

Comparing the first home game of each season isnt accurate, it also depends on opposition. Feel free to bring that information to the forum and we can discuss in more detail

 

[Jock Dodds]

If the chairmen of SPL clubs want more people to turn up for football games there is a simple solution; make it cheaper.

I don't mean freezing ticket prices for a couple of years or other token gestures, I mean radically slashing the cost of going to football.

The more people that turn up on match day the more incoming is generated through secondary channels like catering and merchandising.

Make it free for under-12s or something, kids always need something to do on a Saturday and they might just become season-ticket holders in the future.

If stadiums were fuller, there'd be a better atmosphere, people would enjoy it more, the players would enjoy it more, they play better, win more games, more fans turn up, atmosphere better still, club has more money, better players....and so it goes on.

There you go, that's Scottish football saved, next?

 

[div0]

Do those figures make the "Sell-Out Saturday" campaign a success? I would argue that Aberdeen would think so. They need to maintain attendances at that level though. Other than that, I would say it was a failure.

Discuss...

I don't know too much about what exactly 'Sell Out Saturday' involved, other than just a promotion push to try and increase attendances? I assume there was no other promotion in terms of reduced ticket pricing, or additional discounts in place?

If it was just a simple promotion through increased publicity, then I think Aberdeen in particular would be very happy to see such a big increase. In fact, most clubs would be very happy to see even a small increase of 300-500 extra tickets at each home game, over the course of the season. But there's a long way to go before we'll know if that's likely or not.

I guess Hibs will likely be disappointed, as with the derby, they'd have surely been hoping for a much bigger crowd, but then last season was some of the worst football their fans will have had to endure for a while now, so probably explains why the attendance was quite low.

Overall I think most of those clubs would have been quite happy with the attendances for week 2 in fixtures that, even by Scottish football's standards, weren't particularly glamorous. The big problem with 'Sell Out Saturday' of course, was that the name kind of implies that clubs were aiming for a 'sellout', which was surely an unachievable goal without some other kind of serious promotion effort, in terms of reduced pricing, or group promotions. So from that sense it was always likely that Sell Out Saturday would not end up a total success.

 

[McMav]

If the chairmen of SPL clubs want more people to turn up for football games there is a simple solution; make it cheaper.

I don't mean freezing ticket prices for a couple of years or other token gestures, I mean radically slashing the cost of going to football.

The more people that turn up on match day the more incoming is generated through secondary channels like catering and merchandising.

Make it free for under-12s or something, kids always need something to do on a Saturday and they might just become season-ticket holders in the future.

If stadiums were fuller, there'd be a better atmosphere, people would enjoy it more, the players would enjoy it more, they play better, win more games, more fans turn up, atmosphere better still, club has more money, better players....and so it goes on.

There you go, that's Scottish football saved, next?

Probably too many cant afford the short term pain.

 

[Swordfish]

This weekends fixtures:

Must say I am looking forward to the Dundee Derby should be a cracker and with some luck I'll have bragging rights for a few months !!

Predictions

Heart v Inverness - DRAW
Kilmarnock v Motherwell - AWAY
Ross County v Celtic - AWAY
St Johnstone v Aberdeen - DRAW (nil nil)
St Mirren v Hibs - AWAY
Dundee Utd v Dundee - HOME

Thoughts?

 

[Five.Stars]

Comparing the first home game of each season isnt accurate, it also depends on opposition. Feel free to bring that information to the forum and we can discuss in more detail

Ok, I compared 1st home fixtures as there are only 3 fixtures to compare using the same opposition. Cannot compare Aberdeen's attendance with Ross County since they weren't in the league last season,nor can you compare the Dundee attendance since they too were not in the SPL last season.

But, for the 3 fixtures that can be compared...

Inverness CT vs Kilmarnock averaged 3204 fans last season. The attendance on Saturday was 3012. A drop of 192 fans.

Motherwell vs St. Johnstone averaged 4428 last season. Saturdays attendance was 4490. A gain of 62 fans.

Hibernian vs Hearts only had 1 fixture at Easter Road last season. The attendance was 15013. Sundays attendance was 12,887. A decrease of 2,126 fans.

So over those 3 fixtures which can be directly compared, there was a combined decrease of 2,256 supporters. Or a 9.96% reduction.

Feel free to discuss those figures as requested...

 

[Swordfish]

Feel free to discuss those figures as requested...

Or we could just discuss the football - you know the game played on the green stuff?

 

[Jock Dodds]

Probably too many cant afford the short term pain.

What short term pain? If they lower the price more punters will come, they will actually make more money.

Just found out that St Johnstone are letting under 12s in free all season, home and away support, as long as their accompanied by a paying adult.

Admittedly I'm not an accountant, nor a lawyer, nor an economist; (which some would say leaves me unqualified to comment on Scottish football) but this is a no-brainer for me. Drop the prices, get more punters in the gate, watch the club thrive.

 

[McMav]

What short term pain? If they lower the price more punters will come, they will actually make more money.

Just found out that St Johnstone are letting under 12s in free all season, home and away support, as long as their accompanied by a paying adult.

Admittedly I'm not an accountant, nor a lawyer, nor an economist; (which some would say leaves me unqualified to comment on Scottish football) but this is a no-brainer for me. Drop the prices, get more punters in the gate, watch the club thrive.

They will HOPE more people come and if they dont???? The obviously set the price at the level they need. Big gamble for a lot of clubs hugely in debt to lower prices and crowds not to increase.

Aberdeen are doing a buy an adult season ticket get a kids one free. Thats why they now have an increase in season ticket holders but that does not mean they will have taken in more cash.

 

[Five.Stars]

Or we could just discuss the football - you know the game played on the green stuff?

True, but don't you agree a fall of nearly 10% in the only direct fixture comparisons with last season is worthy of discussion? There was actually a campaign backed by a national newspaper to get more fans into the games. Other than Aberdeens fixture with Ross County, which cannot be compared to last seasons corresponding fixture, it failed.

Now, this ~10% reduction might not occur over the course of the next year or perhaps more, and there isn't enough data to say 1 way or another that this will be the case!

But, if crowds drop by ~10% this will impact the SPL and the clubs even further than has already been the case.

 

[Jock Dodds]

They will HOPE more people come and if they dont???? The obviously set the price at the level they need. Big gamble for a lot of clubs hugely in debt to lower prices and crowds not to increase.

Aberdeen are doing a buy an adult season ticket get a kids one free. Thats why they now have an increase in season ticket holders but that does not mean they will have taken in more cash.

If you make something cheaper more people will buy it, simple economics there. Chairmen are greedy and they need a reality check.

I've no desire to get into the vagaries of each club's sales but if I was an Aberdeen fan I'd be struggling to justify the cost of a season ticket given the previous 5 seasons.

 

[Five.Stars]

If you make something cheaper more people will buy it, simple economics there. Chairmen are greedy and they need a reality check.

I've no desire to get into the vagaries of each club's sales but if I was an Aberdeen fan I'd be struggling to justify the cost of a season ticket given the previous 5 seasons.

That is economics at its very simplest. Tell me, how would they achieve more sales if they have already reached their maximum customer base?

 

[Five.Stars]

Just to add to my attendance figures, Celtic's opening league game was also down over 5% on their average attendance last season. Again, only 1 game so nowhere near enough data to perform an accurate analysis, but interesting nonetheless!

 

[Jock Dodds]

That is economics at its very simplest. Tell me, how would they achieve more sales if they have already reached their maximum customer base?

I've no idea how they would do that, I don't even know how to define the maximum customer base for a football club!

Look, we can all see you have an axe to grind about the attendances in the SPL in the post-Rangers era. That's understandable, but I have no interest in debating attendances any more than I do any of the other stuff that went along with what used to be termed 'The Old Firm'.

I'm sure your arguments are quite valid but your barking up the wrong tree here. I can see why you're trying to generate discussion on this but I think it goes against the spirit of the thread.

I've given my opinion on how I think the SPL could get more customers through the door but I don't intend to make this the main thrust of my contribution to this thread.

 

[Five.Stars]

I've no idea how they would do that, I don't even know how to define the maximum customer base for a football club!

Look, we can all see you have an axe to grind about the attendances in the SPL in the post-Rangers era. That's understandable, but I have no interest in debating attendances any more than I do any of the other stuff that went along with what used to be termed 'The Old Firm'.

I'm sure your arguments are quite valid but your barking up the wrong tree here. I can see why you're trying to generate discussion on this but I think it goes against the spirit of the thread.

I've given my opinion on how I think the SPL could get more customers through the door but I don't intend to make this the main thrust of my contribution to this thread.

I apologise if the reply to your post came across as snidey or offensive. That was not intended. What I meant is that reducing the prices is terrific in theory... But the risk is that these coubs are already attracting their maximum or near maximum customers. If they reduced prices by say 30%, then they would need a 30% increase in customers to make the same revenues. The risk being that whilst they may attract slightly more fans due to lower prices, it would not be ebough to prevent falling revenues.

Perhaps a scheme could be piloted where by if certain figures were not met that money could be subsidised to make up for any shortfall. Perhaps from
The SFA or the Scottish government in an effort to see whether lower pricing would result in higher attendances?!?!

 

[Swordfish]

True, but don't you agree a fall of nearly 10% in the only direct fixture comparisons with last season is worthy of discussion? There was actually a campaign backed by a national newspaper to get more fans into the games. Other than Aberdeens fixture with Ross County, which cannot be compared to last seasons corresponding fixture, it failed.

Now, this ~10% reduction might not occur over the course of the next year or perhaps more, and there isn't enough data to say 1 way or another that this will be the case!

But, if crowds drop by ~10% this will impact the SPL and the clubs even further than has already been the case.

Not really - I expected the resurrection of this thread to be about football. I am sick to the back teeth about the economics of it all. Crowds will improve as the season continues.

Not a bad game going on in Digwall. Nil nil at half-time and deserved as well. Whether or not Ross County has survive the pace I don't know.

 

[Swordfish]

Cracking strike by Britain there - one nil Ross County.

 

[Five.Stars]

Not really - I expected the resurrection of this thread to be about football. I am sick to the back teeth about the economics of it all. Crowds will improve as the season continues.

Not a bad game going on in Digwall. Nil nil at half-time and deserved as well. Whether or not Ross County has survive the pace I don't know.

Whether you like it or not, the economics are part and parcel of the football. A certain club who we apparently are not allowed to mention in this thread were expelled from the SPL and have had various punishments and sanctions, all based on economic indiscretions and difficulties.

If clubs see a 10% drop in attendances in addition to the loss of other revenues associated with that other club then they too may well be in a similar economic situation... and as a consequence, footballing situation.

Given this is a thread about the SPL, and the financial situation of that league was in the news during the week with the news that it has not paid its member clubs their due broadcasting revenues and also has as yet failed to pay the £2million due to the SFL, then I would think this is the thread to discuss it.