Star Wars VIII : The Last Jedi [WARNING: SPOILERS]

Soldato
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That's exactly going to be the case. We'll also get a line like: "As Rey completes her training." Despite her never being trained in the first place.

I also expect Kylo to become a completely different character. He'll suddenly be patient, insightful, rational, focussed and capable with no reason behind it. It would have made sense if he overcame Snoke by pushing past his boundaries, breaking through what was holding him back, but he didn't. He tricked him and the movie then pointedly shows him being exactly the same as he was in Force Awakens, infact he was move Kylo after killing Snoke than ever. There's no evidence for his growth, we see nothing whatsoever.

It's Marvel type stuff. They've simplified it by cutting out the rules and history of the franchise in order to get to the flashy on-screen spectacle. That's it. Disney have a plan for their most valuable asset and Star Wars as we know it is over 100%.

Yes, more retcon bs. Remember how in TFA Kylo was obsessed with his grandfather Vader, torn between the light and dark side of the Force, hatred for his father, full of anger and self-loathing? In TLJ, Snoke is all "I don't like your hat", and then Kylo gets all clever and thoughtful, doesn't give a fig about Vader, kills Snoke "because", etc. Another example of Rian Johnson's nonsense that needs to be written around.

Don't get me wrong, I like the new Kylo Ren who isn't a petulant child, but there's been no reason for the change (apart from Snoke's mask remark, that actually removed an iconic image from the series that harked back to Vader), and Kylo's whole motivation and reason for being as he is has been ignored or removed.
 
Soldato
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You know Luke got about 10 minutes training from Obi-Wan and about a week from Yoda, right? Yet he's a Jedi Master by the end of ROTJ.

How long do people think the journey on the Millennium Falcon was? I'd sort of assumed days at least, the films left me thinking journeys even in hyperspace/lightspeed took a decent amount of time akin to the era of sail. I kind of assumed Obi-Wan had a decent amount of time days at least training Luke in the basics of sensing the force. Equally in Empire Strikes back I imagined a decent period of weeks on Dagobah. I also imagined many months from Cloud City to Return of the Jedi if not longer. At the end of which Luke is a Jedi but not necessarily a particularly well trained one but good enough to beat an aged Vader.

I always felt the original trilogy had a decent passage of time not the implied days to do everything the latest 3 have shown us. Enough time for Luke and Han to gain decent rank in the rebel forces, on merit one assumes.
 
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Tatooine to Alderaan (where the Falcon was intercepted by the Death Star) is a 7 hour hyperdrive journey according to Wookiepedia

I agree that Between ANH and ESB, yes there appears to be a decent amount of time lapsed. However, Luke will have had to teach himself - with no master or books about Jedi's...

The ESB timeline is very confusing, as the Falcon only appears to be on the run for a very short period of time. But Luke gets some hardcore training in that time.

Apparently a year passes between ESB and ROTJ.
 
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Soldato
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You know Luke got about 10 minutes training from Obi-Wan and about a week from Yoda, right? Yet he's a Jedi Master by the end of ROTJ.

Rey could already fight/handle herself in Force Awakens (we see this on Jakku) and Luke was just a Farmer who was a good pilot. For all we know he never had a fight in his life before meeting Obi-wan.
You're wrong. Let's take a closer look at Luke and consider the movies.

Luke had a brief introduction to the force by Obi Wan after never doing anything with it at all - remember this was the first ever Star Wars, this introduction was for both Luke and audience's benefit to get an idea of what it is. We're given context about the past, where his lightsaber came from, what the force is, what the Jedi were etc.

After taking his initial steps in the force with Obi Wan, he faces his first trail during the destruction of the Death Star. He gave up on his worldly senses and allows the force to work through him "Use the force Luke." Step one.

Now opened to the force, lightsaber grab in the snow cave, he is then sent to a Jedi Master who trained Jedi for 800 years. There he learned about the force in more detail for an unknown amount of time. We're given context in why he needed training "Control, control, you must learn control!" We learn that Jedi are normally trained at a much younger age due to the dangers of it. It's established in Empire Strikes Back itself that he's not ready, he has a way to go before he can be considered a Jedi. He goes up against his enemy and gets battered, not just physically but emotionally aswell. Even Darth Vader starts training him in a sense. "Impressive. You've controlled your fear, now release your anger." All of this is context in story telling and character progression. The audience follows Luke's progression. Step two.

Time passes, he constructs his lightsaber and during this time its "safe to assume" given what we know he's already been through and learned that he's now more in-tune with the force. There's a justified air of maturity about him. He senses conflict in his father, the light in him, and ultimately faces his ultimate trial. Also you have to understand that Vader didn't want to kill Luke, he never did, it's the entire point of the original trilogy. It's about family. So it's not like he was going up against a Sith hell-bent on destroying him. Both the Emperor and Vader wanted him to join them. That's a different type of threat.

Luke overcame his ultimate challenge as a trainee Jedi and defeated the Sith not by using martial power (despite overcoming Vader by tapping into the darkside when Vader baited him with threats to his sister) but by relying on his insight and belief in the light he felt in his father. Its only then he becomes a Jedi knight. Yoda himself tells us this.

The context is there, the progressive story steps are there, the character development is there.

Now imagine if Luke had left Yoda, went to Bespin and beat Vader. That really wouldn't work, infact it would ruin the whole thing because Vader then becomes pathetic and Luke is a super power for no real reason despite having been trained by Yoda and Obi Wan. Rey goes a step further than this by having no training at all and is able to do many things with the force instinctively and fighting to the death with trained elite warriors. Granted this would be fine, something new if the story developed her character and showed us WHY it was this way, but it doesn't establish anything at all. It leans on the old rules and at the same time ignores them. It's confusing, lacks context, has no depth and no sense of character progression. It's **** story telling.
 
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Now imagine if Luke had left Yoda, went to Bespin and beat Vader. That really wouldn't work, infact it would ruin the whole thing because Vader then becomes pathetic and Luke is a super power for no real reason despite having been trained by Yoda and Obi Wan. Rey goes a step further than this by having no training at all and is able to do many things with the force instinctively and fighting to the death with trained elite warriors. Granted this would be fine, something new if the story developed her character and showed us WHY it was this way, but it doesn't establish anything at all. It leans on the old rules and at the same time ignores them. It's confusing, lacks context, has no depth and no sense of character progression. It's **** story telling.
Is it conceivable that Rey might have been one of the children from Luke's Jedi training school and was whisked away and dumped on Jakku before Kylo could kill her, before any formal training took place?
 
Soldato
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JJ will take your straws and MAKE AN ENTIRE ****ING MOVIE OUT OF IT!!!

:D

This right here is the actual answer, no matter what was in TLJ, JJ (who just copied the originals anyway) will probably resurrect the immortal line that was used to save the Vadar as Daddy Skywalker in the original trilogy. "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." And Reys lineage could still be anything.
 

v0n

v0n

Soldato
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Yes, Johnson picked "dopelganger" from a (now non canonic i suppose) book, but he's also given it a completely different spin - instead of a momentary effect where the enemy sees multiple copies of his opponent (or other items in vicinity mirrored), Johnson tuned it into Superior Mega Remote Dopelganger-like Manifestation. And a manifestation that can physically interact with surroundings, interact with people, hug them, hand over virtual objects that become physical to them etc. And even then, it's not about it being a new never heard of Jedi trickery - it's always about consequences. Consequences to other story lines - old and new.

The moment Jedi's can manifest themselves remotely - and Jedi ghosts can interact with real objects - and both Jedis and Siths/Dark Force users can triangulate other Force users - and either join them in a moment of need (like Luke did) or connect them to FaceTime (like Snoke did) - it creates giant gaping holes of stupidity in plot all over the place - why didn't Jedi manifest on battlefields before they were wiped out, why didn't Luke manifest few hours earlier to remotely hyperdriveram the fleet in the smallest of ships instead of waiting for Rebels to be wiped out, why didn't Yoda and Obi ghosts thunder the **** out of Vader during duels or pre-emptively set enemy on fire in their sleeping chambers, why didn't Snoke just find Rey at Luke's if he could sense where she was at all time to connect her with Kylo, why this, why that. Stupid plot points breed stupid plot holes. One piece of trivia that Johnson misread and over-fantasised bred forking pandora box of trouble to all three trilogies.
 
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Lucas added loads of BS force powers in the prequels. Like force speed, where they move like the flash.

Weren't those additional force powers around long before the prequels? I certainly remember them being in the Jedi Knight series of games which were quite a few years before Phantom Menace came out.
 
Soldato
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Yeah, but if we're saying those powers are canon then people can use the Force to heal themselves..
Can't be worse than being able to force project yourself across the galaxy, connect peoples minds from across the galaxy or have force ghosts being able to summon lightning, all of which are, unfortunately, now canon
 
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