Star Wars VIII : The Last Jedi [WARNING: SPOILERS]

[PlacidCasual]

Isn't the issue they fail in different ways.
The Phantom Menace was an absolute trailblazer in CGI and as a consequence the technology is misused and the acting looks stiff. The Last Jedi is the product of 20 years of refinement in the technology and looks amazing, as good as anything modern filmmaking can achieve.
TPM has a clunky story that genuinely tries to build a wider universe whilst taking a few missteps. TLJ has a puddle deep story with a clutch of poorly realised characters.
Both do a reasonable effort at some set piece action but feel contrived.
TPM introduces some characters that are a slap in the face, TLJ takes some decent to good existing characters and at best does nothing with them and at worst treats them terribly.
TPM tries to build on existing lore fleshing out details sometime well sometimes badly, TLJ throws any existing lore over it's shoulder and treats it with contempt.

Both fail just in different ways. I can't say I'm in a rush to watch either anytime soon, but Lucas I believe deserves more credit because I think he was trying to do something different it just didn't work as well as anyone would hope.

 

[IvanDobskey]

Isn't the issue they fail in different ways.
The Phantom Menace was an absolute trailblazer in CGI and as a consequence the technology is misused and the acting looks stiff. The Last Jedi is the product of 20 years of refinement in the technology and looks amazing, as good as anything modern filmmaking can achieve.
TPM has a clunky story that genuinely tries to build a wider universe whilst taking a few missteps. TLJ has a puddle deep story with a clutch of poorly realised characters.
Both do a reasonable effort at some set piece action but feel contrived.
TPM introduces some characters that are a slap in the face, TLJ takes some decent to good existing characters and at best does nothing with them and at worst treats them terribly.
TPM tries to build on existing lore fleshing out details sometime well sometimes badly, TLJ throws any existing lore over it's shoulder and treats it with contempt.

Both fail just in different ways. I can't say I'm in a rush to watch either anytime soon, but Lucas I believe deserves more credit because I think he was trying to do something different it just didn't work as well as anyone would hope.

You've pretty much summed up how I feel there.

 

[Rroff]

Unless you start applying the same critical analysis to the originals as people are to TLJ then you obviously aren't going think it's any good.

Most of them start to break down if you look too closely - but that is the key - with TLJ it is in your face in every aspect.

 

[enkoda]

Isn't the issue they fail in different ways.
The Phantom Menace was an absolute trailblazer in CGI and as a consequence the technology is misused and the acting looks stiff. The Last Jedi is the product of 20 years of refinement in the technology and looks amazing, as good as anything modern filmmaking can achieve.
TPM has a clunky story that genuinely tries to build a wider universe whilst taking a few missteps. TLJ has a puddle deep story with a clutch of poorly realised characters.
Both do a reasonable effort at some set piece action but feel contrived.
TPM introduces some characters that are a slap in the face, TLJ takes some decent to good existing characters and at best does nothing with them and at worst treats them terribly.
TPM tries to build on existing lore fleshing out details sometime well sometimes badly, TLJ throws any existing lore over it's shoulder and treats it with contempt.

Both fail just in different ways. I can't say I'm in a rush to watch either anytime soon, but Lucas I believe deserves more credit because I think he was trying to do something different it just didn't work as well as anyone would hope.

TPM was a travesty that was full of contrived nonsense just to try and fit in with things introduced in Episodes 4-6. Off the top of my head:

Why were Jedi sent to negotiate a trade dispute? Peacekeepers, yes, Federation tax legislation experts, no.
Why blow up their docked ship thus alerting them to danger?
Why blow up their ship if the intention is to kill them in the reception room?
If the intention was to kill them anyway, why not just blast them to pieces as they approach the blockade?
Why try and kill them with a visible gas injected noisily into the room when it could've been done silently using a colourless, odourless gas? Why not spike their drinks?
Why send droids to destroy what's left of them? Why not leave it for a while until they are verified as dead? Why is it necessary to destroy their dead bodies?
Why is it necessary to use the most convoluted method possible to get to the Queen?
Why not just send a communication from the blockade ship to Jedi HQ alerting the council of the attempt on their lives?
Why doesn't Qui-Gon just steal the part for their ship? He tries to use the Force on Watto for the same end goal...
Why is Anakin making a protocol droid for his mother? She's a slave, not a galactic dignitary.
Why doesn't Obi-Wan use his force speed running to get through those energy gates, instead of watching his best friend and master get killed?
Midichlorians? Seriously? This completely contradicts what the Force is, a fundamental part of the whole story.

Most of that was within the first few scenes of a film that is apparently not the worst and not full of stupid plot holes.

As was mentioned above, if people didn't like it, that's fine, but placing it lower than TPM is mind-boggling!

 

[Rroff]

TPM was a travesty that was full of contrived nonsense just to try and fit in with things introduced in Episodes 4-6.

While TLJ is full of contrived nonsense for no reason at all...

 

[VincentHanna]

TPM was a travesty that was full of contrived nonsense just to try and fit in with things introduced in Episodes 4-6

SNIP

As was mentioned above, if people didn't like it, that's fine, but placing it lower than TPM is mind-boggling!

Good post, well said.

People are deluded if they think prequels are better movies

 

[eggyoke]

Isn't the issue they fail in different ways.
The Phantom Menace was an absolute trailblazer in CGI and as a consequence the technology is misused and the acting looks stiff. The Last Jedi is the product of 20 years of refinement in the technology and looks amazing, as good as anything modern filmmaking can achieve.
TPM has a clunky story that genuinely tries to build a wider universe whilst taking a few missteps. TLJ has a puddle deep story with a clutch of poorly realised characters.
Both do a reasonable effort at some set piece action but feel contrived.
TPM introduces some characters that are a slap in the face, TLJ takes some decent to good existing characters and at best does nothing with them and at worst treats them terribly.
TPM tries to build on existing lore fleshing out details sometime well sometimes badly, TLJ throws any existing lore over it's shoulder and treats it with contempt.

Both fail just in different ways. I can't say I'm in a rush to watch either anytime soon, but Lucas I believe deserves more credit because I think he was trying to do something different it just didn't work as well as anyone would hope.

Spot on, perfect summary.
Lucas had an idea of opening up Star Wars with the prequels. It was just badly realised, AotC is still an awful movie no matter what you say about it, however you can still see its point and why it exists. TLJ on the other hand has no point, it has no destination, no new direction nor does it take character development to new places. It's so self-aware its a Star Wars movie that it regularly takes the **** out of itself and therefore the people watching it. It's almost like a spoof of Star Wars, as if its embarrassed it even exists. It's just so bizarre, I've never seen a movie from a big franchise misjudge itself so badly.

 

[No1newts]

Spot on, perfect summary.
Lucas had an idea of opening up Star Wars with the prequels. It was just badly realised, AotC is still an awful movie no matter what you say about it, however you can still see its point and why it exists. TLJ on the other hand has no point, it has no destination, no new direction nor does it take character development to new places. It's so self-aware its a Star Wars movie that it regularly takes the **** out of itself and therefore the people watching it. It's almost like a spoof of Star Wars, as if its embarrassed it even exists. It's just so bizarre, I've never seen a movie from a big franchise misjudge itself so badly.

Yet ask younger generations and they love the new ones and attack of the clones seems really popular as well.

 

[JediFragger]

Yet ask younger generations and they love the new ones and attack of the clones seems really popular as well.

Of course they are, they've been brought up on mainly junk!! Be like Citizen Kane to them

 

[No1newts]

Of course they are, they've been brought up on mainly junk!! Be like Citizen Kane to them

Haha

Just trying to make people realise that their opinions are subjective because so many of the posts in here are akin to the hysterical rants of the Spanish Inquisition to anyone who doesn't completely loathe the new films

 

[Rroff]

Spot on, perfect summary.
Lucas had an idea of opening up Star Wars with the prequels. It was just badly realised, AotC is still an awful movie no matter what you say about it, however you can still see its point and why it exists. TLJ on the other hand has no point, it has no destination, no new direction nor does it take character development to new places. It's so self-aware its a Star Wars movie that it regularly takes the **** out of itself and therefore the people watching it. It's almost like a spoof of Star Wars, as if its embarrassed it even exists. It's just so bizarre, I've never seen a movie from a big franchise misjudge itself so badly.

What sucked for me was the way everything was pulled out of a hat when needed and sometimes even when it wasn't needed just because - little attempt to weave a narration, etc.

 

[enkoda]

What sucked for me was the way everything was pulled out of a hat when needed and sometimes even when it wasn't needed just because - little attempt to weave a narration, etc.

Just like the first 3.

How C3PO came to be?
How Obi-Wan forgets R2, despite going on numerous exploits with him?
Obi-Wan forgetting that Qui-Gon was the Jedi master that trained him, not Yoda?
I could go on and on...

Why was it ok for Lucas to pull things out of a hat with zero criticism (and I'm mainly pointing my fingers at the production team) yet all of sudden everyone is screaming abuse when a new production team introduce things that are trivial compared to the first 3 films? I'll just mention midichlorians again in case you forgot....

 

[Nitefly]

I'm definitely older and jaded as viewers go - not invested in Star Wars myself though I appreciate the escapism it can have.

Having played games like Eve Online a lot and watched a few movies that manage to do space battles in a semi-believable fashion with some kind of actual application of tactics and so on and without having to contrive everything to work and/or to produce a spectacle I find all those elements of this movie utterly trash - even the older ones were at least passable in that respect even if they didn't necessarily do it well.

I found the level of contrivance just destroyed any ability to even switch off brain and enjoy which I have managed to do with some other movies that had so-so writing, etc. but reasonably watchable action and great visuals - the odd time someone who just happens to have come from X at the right time in the script to know about Y, etc. you can pass over but the whole movie depended on it to move forward at every turn with one contrivance required to back up another while not even being consistent in the next scene.

That’s all fine but I really don’t see how you can apply these criticisms to TLJ but NOT the other films.

Take empire for example:

Hans face should have frozen off if that ice walker thing died of the cold, yet he seemed fine. Ridiculous.

Why send in the AT ATs when they could have carpet bombed hoth. Surely the least efficient assault ever. And seriously, slow moving walker tanks... really?? AT ATs are stupid in principle.

Big worm creature has pointless teeth also - makes absolutely no sense how they flew the falcon in without realising it.

Surviving the asteroid field is a total joke. Would never happen. Total luck-fest driving the plot tbh.

Most ridiculous trap for Luke ever. No point for Vader confronting him, just stun him or gas him out. Pointless scene for spectacle.

Millennium falcon escaping amongst all of those ships at the end is redonk.

I could do oodles more but I’m sure you get the jist of what I’m getting at. I don’t find TLJ to be grossly more offensive at this sort of thing than any of the other films.

 

[Gerard]

Wonder when Leia went from sounding like an upperclass English woman to an elderly american woman with dodgy fitting dentures.

 

[Rroff]

That’s all fine but I really don’t see how you can apply these criticisms to TLJ but NOT the other films.

Take empire for example:

Hans face should have frozen off if that ice walker thing died of the cold, yet he seemed fine. Ridiculous.

Why send in the AT ATs when they could have carpet bombed hoth. Surely the least efficient assault ever. And seriously, slow moving walker tanks... really?? AT ATs are stupid in principle.

Big worm creature has pointless teeth also - makes absolutely no sense how they flew the falcon in without realising it.

Surviving the asteroid field is a total joke. Would never happen. Total luck-fest driving the plot tbh.

Most ridiculous trap for Luke ever. No point for Vader confronting him, just stun him or gas him out. Pointless scene for spectacle.

Millennium falcon escaping amongst all of those ships at the end is redonk.

I could do oodles more but I’m sure you get the jist of what I’m getting at. I don’t find TLJ to be grossly more offensive at this sort of thing than any of the other films.

Most movies have problems like that if you look closely enough - that doesn't make them equally bad - also some have great narratives and/or characters, etc. that redeem them, etc. and I don't remember any movie that relies on pulling the rabbit out the hat at almost every turn as this one does plus what makes it so bad isn't just logical fallacies or plot holes.

Just like the first 3.

How C3PO came to be?
How Obi-Wan forgets R2, despite going on numerous exploits with him?
Obi-Wan forgetting that Qui-Gon was the Jedi master that trained him, not Yoda?
I could go on and on...

Why was it ok for Lucas to pull things out of a hat with zero criticism (and I'm mainly pointing my fingers at the production team) yet all of sudden everyone is screaming abuse when a new production team introduce things that are trivial compared to the first 3 films? I'll just mention midichlorians again in case you forgot....

You seem to be replying to someone that isn't me.

 

[VincentHanna]

I find it a bit weird you paused in 11 minutes in to tell us how bad it was.

It's rare I can make a judgement on a movie after just 10 minutes.

 

[enkoda]

You seem to be replying to someone that isn't me.

You said about things being pulled out of the hat in TLJ which is what I was highlighting with respect to the previous films (Ep 1-3) - you know, the same films where Lucas pulled things out of a hat because he forgot what he put in the original films.
Films that he wrote and directed....

 

[Rroff]

You said about things being pulled out of the hat in TLJ which is what I was highlighting with respect to the previous films (Ep 1-3) - you know, the same films where Lucas pulled things out of a hat because he forgot what he put in the original films.
Films that he wrote and directed....

I've not commented on the other movies though for the most part and certainly not defended them.

I find it a bit weird you paused in 11 minutes in to tell us how bad it was.

It's rare I can make a judgement on a movie after just 10 minutes.

I edited my post a bit after my original comment around 11 minutes in - originally I was a bit more tentative "I hope it doesn't carry on like this" - but the first 10 minutes alone were dire - increasingly unbelievable in any semblance of tactics or established wisdom about the Star Wars universe, etc. and consistently insulting to the intelligence of the viewer.

The fact that currently Amazon reviews sit at 37% (adjusted to take into account the rating of the two different versions on Amazon) of viewers rating 1 star while even the Phantom Menace has only 12% tells a bit of a story LOL.

 

[enkoda]

A quick recap:

[snip]
The movie is dumb as **** from just about every angle the only thing I was impressed with was the visuals (which is pretty much the only reason I didn't turn it off as I'm always interested in that) shame the same attention to detail visually wasn't reflected in attention to detail anywhere else.

The movie was a string of contrived together to make it work where it was so contrived things didn't even have consistency from one scene to the next never mind any semblance of believability or the other movies, etc. it is literally hands down the worst movie I've ever watched.

Have I made a gross error of judgement in presuming you've seen the other Star Wars films, in particular TPM?

I've not commented on the other movies though for the most part and certainly not defended them.



I edited my post a bit after my original comment around 11 minutes in - originally I was a bit more tentative "I hope it doesn't carry on like this" - but the first 10 minutes alone were dire - increasingly unbelievable in any semblance of tactics or established wisdom about the Star Wars universe, etc. and consistently insulting to the intelligence of the viewer.

The fact that currently Amazon reviews sit at 37% (adjusted to take into account the rating of the two different versions on Amazon) of viewers rating 1 star while even the Phantom Menace has only 12% tells a bit of a story LOL.

The only 'official' Star Wars universe/canon is the films, something which die-hard fans of the genre simply refuse to let go.

I guess the simplest way to resolve this is by asking: have you seen The Phantom Menace?
If you have, can you at least explain why the gargantuan plot holes and errors in TPM are blown away by TLJ?
If you haven't seen it, please don't bother - if TLJ is the worst film you've ever seen, then you'll be popping blood vessels at the awfulness of TPM.

 

[Rroff]

A quick recap:

Have I made a gross error of judgement in presuming you've seen the other Star Wars films, in particular TPM?

The only 'official' Star Wars universe/canon is the films, something which die-hard fans of the genre simply refuse to let go.

I guess the simplest way to resolve this is by asking: have you seen The Phantom Menace?
If you have, can you at least explain why the gargantuan plot holes and errors in TPM are blown away by TLJ?
If you haven't seen it, please don't bother - if TLJ is the worst film you've ever seen, then you'll be popping blood vessels at the awfulness of TPM.

I've seen all the main Star Wars movies - TPM to TLJ to me is like Windows 8 to Windows 10 - Windows 8 is dumb Windows 10 just takes the mick.

On the other hand it is almost 20 years since I watched the original TPM release I'm not sure what my opinion would be of it today to be fair - the last time I watched it was the fan edit.