Summer Transfer Window 2013/2014 aka Arsenal , we can afford folks and the mancs really want Fellani

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Don
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Yes, I've already said Marcelo is good going forward. He's not as good as Baines going forward though. I don't know how it ended, but in roughly March this year (so 3/4s of the way through the season), Baines was the most creative player in Europe's 5 leagues, creating more chances than anyone else. I didn't see Marcelo's name there.

Those chance creation stats can be somewhat misleading. Baines played in a side that put a lot of crosses into the box, not always from great positions and was also Everton's main set-piece taker.

Every time Baines flung a cross in and Fellaini managed to get a bit of his afro on the end of it, it goes down as a chance created.

As for how good Baines is, I don't think you can simply compare him to others. I said at the time when Utd were looking at signing him that I wasn't convinced it was a good move for them. Not because Evra's better than Baines but because I'm not sure Baines is the type of LB that Utd needed (although if Moyes ends up using Fellaini like he did at Everton that might change). How many of the top European sides want or need a LB that will swing crosses in from 20-30 yards from goal? Not many. A lot of the fullbacks at big sides are pacey players that will overlap some kind of inside forward/winger and their main purpose is to stretch teams to create more space for those forwards.

This also applies to DM's stats arguement. Put Baines in the Barca side and how many assists is he going to get? Not a lot I'd have thought. Baines is effective for Everton because Everton play to his strengths.

Oh look, it's Moses, contributing nothing again and having a pop again, like clockwork.
Do you think before you post Tummy? How did this discussion start? You contributing nothing and just having a pop, as you put it.
 
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Caporegime
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Those chance creation stats can be somewhat misleading. Baines played in a side that put a lot of crosses into the box, not always from great positions and was also Everton's main set-piece taker.

Every time Baines flung a cross in and Fellaini managed to get a bit of his afro on the end of it, it goes down as a chance created.

As for how good Baines is, I don't think you can simply compare him to others. I said at the time when Utd were looking at signing him that I wasn't convinced it was a good move for them. Not because Evra's better than Baines but because I'm not sure Baines is the type of LB that Utd needed (although if Moyes ends up using Fellaini like he did at Everton that might change). How many of the top European sides want or need a LB that will swing crosses in from 20-30 yards from goal? Not many. A lot of the fullbacks at big sides are pacey players that will overlap some kind of inside forward/winger and their main purpose is to stretch teams to create more space for those forwards.

This is largely how Marcelo is used for Real Madrid, and is a great example of playing different roles within different (better) teams like I mentioned. Marcelo isn't expected to pump crosses in to the box or score free kicks, he's expected to drag players out of position and over lap, creating space and allowing other players to exploit the space.
 
Don
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This is largely how Marcelo is used for Real Madrid, and is a great example of playing different roles within different (better) teams like I mentioned. Marcelo isn't expected to pump crosses in to the box or score free kicks, he's expected to drag players out of position and over lap, creating space and allowing other players to exploit the space.

Playing differently doesn't therefore make them as good or better, which is what you suggested.

Marcelo maybe more suited to a side like Real but that doesn't mean he's as good. I'd argue that Baines would be more effective for Real than Marcelo would be for Everton.
Couldn't help it could you :D.

If you wouldn't be so hypocritical I wouldn't need to say anything.
 
Caporegime
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Playing differently doesn't therefore make them as good or better, which is what you suggested.

Marcelo maybe more suited to a side like Real but that doesn't mean he's as good. I'd argue that Baines would be more effective for Real than Marcelo would be for Everton.


If you wouldn't be so hypocritical I wouldn't need to say anything.

I don't know, they individually play different roles. I don't think Baines would be more effective than Marcelo at Real Madrid.
 
Man of Honour
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This is largely how Marcelo is used for Real Madrid, and is a great example of playing different roles within different (better) teams like I mentioned. Marcelo isn't expected to pump crosses in to the box or score free kicks, he's expected to drag players out of position and over lap, creating space and allowing other players to exploit the space.
If you think Baines doesn't do that, as well as his ability to cross and deliver a dead ball, I suggest you go and watch some Everton games and see how often he overlaps and gets to the byeline.
 
Don
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I don't know, they individually play different roles. I don't think Baines would be more effective than Marcelo at Real Madrid.

Talk about missing the point.

Marcelo is better suited to Real's style of play, Baines is better suited to Everton's style of play. That doesn't therefore make either better/worse than the other or even equals.

Certain players are better for certain teams or styles and I'm not sure if you can compare them and claim one is better than the other. You tried to ridicule Davey's point though and your response was no more valid than what he said.

The only way you could possible compare them would be to flip things around and see how they'd do playing in styles alien to them and as I said, imo I think Baines would adapt better than Marcelo. Does that make him a better LB overall? Who knows and who cares. All that matters to Everton is having the best possible LB for them and Baines is about as good as they come for Everton's needs. Marcelo isn't the best for Real's needs though.
 
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Caporegime
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This is largely how Marcelo is used for Real Madrid, and is a great example of playing different roles within different (better) teams like I mentioned. Marcelo isn't expected to pump crosses in to the box or score free kicks, he's expected to drag players out of position and over lap, creating space and allowing other players to exploit the space.

THe thing that is embarrassing is, Marcelo DOES put crosses into the box and he DOES take freekicks, yes even when Ronaldo is on the pitch, Ronaldo takes the first 34, then Marcelo gets to take 3, then Ronaldo gets the next 34. Ref's in La Liga help.

Both you and Baz are both suggesting Baines doesn't know how to run the overlap and never does so for Everton, balls, that he isn't pacey, balls, that the only player he has ever crossed to in his entire career is Fellani... balls.

Fellani in his entire time at Everton really only played as a striker for PARTS of last season, he's usually in midfield, most of Baines crosses haven't targetted fellani, he's not a high scorer and hasn't been a high scorer in his entire time.

Just because Baines CAN put a ball on Fellani's head, doesn't in any way mean he's incapable of whipping a low ball across the box, or cutting inside and playing a one two. Baines has infact scored goals in open play and absolutely isn't limited to crossing from 30 yards.

I think the bigger problem here is not people who don't watch Marcelo play, but those who have only seen a few highlights of Baines and only remember the most recent season and the biggest games in which Fellani happened to score. Baines wasn't as good last season as in previous seasons for one thing and Fellani is pretty crap, despite utter domination in the box he fluffed half his chances and gave away freekicks unnecessarily when he had a great chance.

Anyone who actually has watched Marcelo consistently knows he shoots a lot for a left back(55 shots in his highest scoring season vs around 33 in Baines... who scored a few more in his highest season than Marcelo). He offers very little, his crossing is poor, he generally just blasts the hell out of the ball, sure sometimes he puts in the perfect cross but usually not.

EDIT:- also this "player x suits team Y" thing is as irritating as the "he hasn't played against the top teams because he doesn't play in the champs league". Firstly Baines and Marcelo play left back, they get forward a lot to support offensive and are expected to get back and defend every attack the opposition has that they are capable of... they play the same position. Some left backs pass the ball then run up the field, others run the ball up the field, they are still playing left back. likewise suggesting(with no proof at all) that Baines is incapable of playing at all differently(whatever it is that makes both players different, which is... nothing, running passing moving, marking, crossing, shooting, etc, etc) at another club when another manager asks them to play another way.

RVP joined Arsenal as a Bergkamp style build up player, he played mostly on the wings in his first few years, then more as a support striker and for 3-4 years has played as an out and out striker scoring more. Fabregas played 7-8 years as a central mid, and has recently been playing as a striker for club and country... doesn't currently != can't.

For me Baines suits Real more than Marcelo because he's better going forward and better defensively making him a much better left back.
 
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Caporegime
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Hull striker Matty Fryatt joins Sheffield Wednesday on a one-month loan.

Fryatt has made just two appearances for the Tigers this season, both in the Capital One Cup, and manager Steve Bruce has been eager to get him a short-term deal to build match sharpness.

Leeds had been interested in the player, with boss Brian McDermott present at Hull's midweek cup win over Huddersfield, but the Owls have secured a deal for the 27-year-old who is eligible for Saturday's clash with Doncaster Rovers.

Actual transfer(ish) stuff happening.

I just hope Wednesday actually make use of having another forward by getting the ball to them.
 
Soldato
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I said ages ago, that if Man U dont finish in the top two, Moyes will (should) get the sack. It's unthinkable for United to not finish in the top two, and if they dont it's becuase of Moyes.

It just shows you that United maybe individually arent that good after all and the one 'player' that galvinised them was Ferguson!
 
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