Supplements the debate/discussion thread

Main reasons are:

Recovery
Calories
Macros

Also some of the elements are synergists and catalysts to amino acid absorbtion and enhance the protein synthesis, boost insulin response and try and make my body as anabolic as possible!

The mix of whey also helps get a better amino acid profile as well as fast and slower absorbing protein. Combined with the AAs and carb sources should enhance the supplement ingestion significantly.

To give a run down of each supp:

HMB is a derivative of Leucine. HMB is naturally occurring within the body in small quantities where it plays an important role in protein synthesis just as leucine does, however it completes the synthesis process. It can reduce catabolism and can lead to an increase of protein synthesis (=more LBM growth). HMB is anti catabolic. It disrupts the functions of proteolytes which are an aggressive enzymes which increase the rate of protein degradation when the body is in a catabolic state such as immediately after a workout. So if you reduce that the protein stays in better state for longer.
There is some evidence to suggest that HMB can increase VO2 max and increase muscle lactate thresholds. Which as you know can increase the energy output / performance. And HMB effects have been shown to be accentuated during negatives/exhaustive repetitions – don’t have the papers on this, so it’s purely anecdotal for the moment.
Creatine – every body knows about this!!!! :D Naturally occurs in your body. Every time you perform any type of intense exercise (e.g. weight training) your body uses creatine to provide you with energy. However Creatine depletion happens quickly and this is the reason why you can’t train at 100% intensity for very long periods.


Dextrose is a simple high GI carbohydrate. Digested very quickly and so is ideal for replenishing liver and muscle glycogen post workout – though it depends on how much carb cycling you do. Cortisol levels rise during a workout (it’s a stress hormone) as the body tries to provide glucose for energy, however you really want to reduce cortisol post by stimulating a strong insulin release which high GI carbs do. Lowering cortisol and increasing insulin creates an anabolic environment within your body (that’s why insulin is such a wonderful thing to be able to control)

Maltodextrin is a man made carbohydrate produced from the hydrolysis of starch andis similar in structure to a protein peptide.
It is classified as a complex carb, it’s mainly made from small d-glucose molecules and is quickly broken down into glucose and hence has a similar GI rating to dextrose. It’s one of the best carbs for delivering glucose for glycogen uptake post work out. It also helps fluid intake. Generally it is sourced from corn starch and so has a high amylopetin content and low amylase which gives the same benefits as dextrose without the sweet taste. So the reason I’ve added this was so that I could keep the dextrose down a little.
Ribose is the sugar that kicks starts the metabolic process for production of ATP which is the major source of energy used by cells (Krebs cycle anyone? ;)). So included in those cells are muscle tissue cells. When you exercise, some ATP your body uses for energy is lost from the cells. Especially after prolonged high intensity this can deplete significantly. Unfortunately, Ribose production is slow, so to increase or to try and keep up with it’s depletion following or during hardcore exercise it’s a good supplement to take. I think it can take up to 2-3 days to recover ATP fully?
Now although it’s produced from glucose taking it can bypass the body's slow production pathways, which means that ATP is produced at a higher rate. If your body can get it’s ATP supply back quickly, it means you can get back on it more quickly.
So in a nutshell it can increases strength endurance, it replenishes ATP levels in less than 24hrs, can supports higher levels of ATP which both avoids inhibition of, as well as, signals protein synthesis to start and as such it works synergistically with Creatine! Hence another reason for taking creatine as well. :D


Leucine as you all probably know increases skeletal muscle protein synthesis (I think I read somewhere in the region of 7-9x more?), more so than any other amino acid at any rate. Leucine is a limiting nutrient i.e. it means you have to have enough leucine for it to be effective – hence why I bang on about amino acid profiles on my whey protein all the time!! :p If you don’t have enough it just won’t make use of what you eat. You can avoid this limiting effect by taking it – I think most servings are around 2grammes for optimal levels.
This is where the link to the other supps comes in. The ATP levels also play a role in protein synthesis. It is activated when ATP levels are high, whilst the opposite happens when ATP levels are low. Supps like creatine and ribose boost levels of ATP (which is good for protein synthesis). leucine can also help to mitigate this lowering of protein synthesis that low ATP levels cause. Leucine also decreases catabolism cycle, and increases HMB synthesis by sparing leucine levels in muscle. It also help to increase levels of insulin – if you remember I talked about protein degradation earlier, well this mitigates those levels. I’ve read that leucine and insulin are independent of one another, however from what I’ve read when they’re increased simultaneously, they have a synergistic effect on protein synthesis.
Here’s the clincher - Leucine also enhances insulin response to carbs, which which makes you more anabolic – or sorry, your body in a more anabolic state.
However if you go OTT with leucine it can have a detrimental effect on other BCAAs.

Glutamine is another AA that every muscle cell in your body has and needs. It’s an important “building block” for the proteins that maintain health and tissue repair in cells. You get in naturally in meat and fish (though you can get it from pulses too I believe but in much smaller doses). Because it helps to rebuild muscle tissue, along with leucine and protein and a good AA profile, it can help fix, maintain and build that muscle. It’s more important for hypertrophy training, and despite not doing that sort of training, it helps with overall recovery and endurance training and is great at minimising cramps which I can suffer from when pushing myself :(.
 
It has a lot of carbs in it so I thinking it might be a meal replacement type shake but then it depends on the amounts of each ingredient.

Carb count is not too bad.

Works out to round 280cals per serving (roughly, depends how big a spoon I use :p)

45% Protein
30% Carb
4% Fat
16% Amino acids

The remaining 5% is down to misc elements - this is quite approximate.

This is a very high AA profile based stack which suits me better than just pure whey.
 
Wow, when you put it like that, it sounds like a potent (in a good way) combination. How much do you think it will cost you to get it all in?
 
Carb count is not too bad.

Works out to round 280cals per serving (roughly, depends how big a spoon I use :p)

45% Protein
30% Carb
4% Fat
16% Amino acids

The remaining 5% is down to misc elements - this is quite approximate.

This is a very high AA profile based stack which suits me better than just pure whey.

Wish I knew how to work out stuff like that :o
 
Carb count is not too bad.

Works out to round 280cals per serving (roughly, depends how big a spoon I use :p)

45% Protein
30% Carb
4% Fat
16% Amino acids

The remaining 5% is down to misc elements - this is quite approximate.

This is a very high AA profile based stack which suits me better than just pure whey.

Is this going to be pre-mixed in bulk, or made up 'as and when' its used? I could do with upping my calories. Also toying with the idea of adding glutamine after reading various good things about it.

Would you mind adding the ratios when you come to mixing it up?
 
Carb count is not too bad.

Works out to round 280cals per serving (roughly, depends how big a spoon I use :p)

45% Protein
30% Carb
4% Fat
16% Amino acids

The remaining 5% is down to misc elements - this is quite approximate.

This is a very high AA profile based stack which suits me better than just pure whey.

Like I said while it has a lot of types of carbs it might not be high in them. It might have been 90% dextrose :D My brain is hard-wired to look for carbs in lists since I'm a type I diabetic, so I might have been a bit overboard on the carb front. Thinking about it a bit more afterwards you'd have had much more fat in it if it was going to be meal replacement I think?
 
I had my order of this arrive yesterday.
I went for the WPC Precision in raspberry ripple and strawberry flavours. Had to order another shaker though as it's over £50 not £50 spend to get the free stuff with it. :rolleyes:

Oh well, can never have too many shakers, delivery was free DPD next day as well, shirt is decent and well the scoops are scoops. :p

Yeah the delivery was brilliant with me aswell. Cant complain for the price.

Works out a lot better value than MP for flavoured whey, and cant knock a shaker and tshirt Imo :)
 
Wow, when you put it like that, it sounds like a potent (in a good way) combination. How much do you think it will cost you to get it all in?

About £80 - should last me several months. :)

Wish I knew how to work out stuff like that :o

It's easy enough to do :) Just takes a little bit of patience ;)

Is this going to be pre-mixed in bulk, or made up 'as and when' its used? I could do with upping my calories. Also toying with the idea of adding glutamine after reading various good things about it.

Would you mind adding the ratios when you come to mixing it up?

This is all mixed together - i.e. I buy in bulk, then combine them. Ok, some people say that you cannot guarantee an even mix at every helping, but the standard deviation is so tiny that it makes little odds. :) I haven't got time to scoop everything each time I want a shake. Shove it in a bag, and mix! :D
 
Like I said while it has a lot of types of carbs it might not be high in them. It might have been 90% dextrose :D My brain is hard-wired to look for carbs in lists since I'm a type I diabetic, so I might have been a bit overboard on the carb front. Thinking about it a bit more afterwards you'd have had much more fat in it if it was going to be meal replacement I think?

I getcha - being diabetic it's probably not ideal for you, however that insulin spike is very very useful for absorbing and creating an anabolic environment for your body as I have explained on here many times before - happy to dig it out if you're interested? AS a diabetic obviously you have to be more mindful of insulin levels!

Well if I wanted a real meal replacement I'd just add more oats, or as you say load up on the fats (though I will be getting my fats elsewhere - I love my fats! :D) or just double the size of the serving!

It's around a 80-90g serving (I don't have a scoop :o I just use x amount of table spoons! LOL!), so you can work out the macros/ratios from there.
 
I getcha - being diabetic it's probably not ideal for you, however that insulin spike is very very useful for absorbing and creating an anabolic environment for your body as I have explained on here many times before - happy to dig it out if you're interested? AS a diabetic obviously you have to be more mindful of insulin levels!

Well if I wanted a real meal replacement I'd just add more oats, or as you say load up on the fats (though I will be getting my fats elsewhere - I love my fats! :D) or just double the size of the serving!

It's around a 80-90g serving (I don't have a scoop :o I just use x amount of table spoons! LOL!), so you can work out the macros/ratios from there.

Thanks for the offer but I'm under doctors orders to only be an arm chair expert. I have slight bleeding in my left eye caused by diabetes and it isn't a good idea to do anything that makes blood pressure go up and down in swings until it is stable or sometime after treatment if it starts to move closer to my line of sight.

She said weight lifting isn't a good idea for someone with weak blood vessels in their eyes and I should stop. I'd only just started to, so hadn't even made that much progress. The whole subject is really interesting to me so I keep reading about it. I hope to be able to start again after I get discharged back into the general diabetic eye screening.

Anyway this has gone totally off topic of supplements.
 
How essential are BCAA's for gaining mass? Im currently taking one protein shake a day with 5 high protein meals but not sure if BCAAs would help me at all?
 
So I take it then they arent worth spending the money on if I am at a beginner level looking to put some mass on?
 
I dont know what fasted training is so I guess not! I will read up on it though.

Read up on here: http://www.leangains.com/

It will be referred to as IF.

You basically train in the morning first thing, say 6am, you won't eat until something like mid-day, before mid-day however will will take the supps you mentioned...That's it. Then between 12 - 8 you will consume all calories, 8 untill 12 the next day, you will 'eat' nothing. ;)

Apparently works, never tried it, but there are several case studies on the guys website
 
It all depends if it suits how shift patterns (if you work) and lifestyle. IF isn't for everyone, although I'm currently doing it dont mind the fasting period (even if I do close to 20hrs depending on work).
 
Do you have to do the workouts so early in the morning though? I'm guessing it can be done at a different time so that anyone can do it?
 
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