Supplements the debate/discussion thread

I'm not sold on the carbs being absolutely required to be honest.

Either way, just put the scoop of powder in your mouth and then down a few gulps of water. It will be a lot less unpleasant than the gritty mess you'll end up with if you attempt to dissolve it in a glass of water.

Having it with porridge is fine.
 
Somnambulist said:
ZMA did nothing for me - if anything it made getting to sleep harder for me (I've read this is the B6 in it).

My sleep is guff though. It's probably partly down to the shift work I do (few days on 8-8, few days off, few nights on 8-8, repeat) but wwwwwhy do I keep waking up at 2/3/4am for no reason and struggle to get back to sleep (I feel wide awake like my mind is on fire), aaaargh. Recovery, energy, not even once.

No caffeine about 6 hours before bed, hydrated although I often wake up feeling hot and dried out, but needing a wee too. I don't snore so I don't think it's sleep apnea like my (fatty) dad has.

Middle Night Insomnia is the clinical name, apparently. :(
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Funnily enough, the latest article I read advises to take ZMA too!

Worth a read but I'd imagine you already know all of this;

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/10/20/how-to-get-a-good-nights-sleep/
 
FrenchTart said:
I'm not sold on the carbs being absolutely required to be honest.

Either way, just put the scoop of powder in your mouth and then down a few gulps of water. It will be a lot less unpleasant than the gritty mess you'll end up with if you attempt to dissolve it in a glass of water.

Having it with porridge is fine.
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Dude - do you know what porridge is? ;) :D

The point is simply to say that - without carbohydrate - the effects of creatine are somewhat diminished because carbs bind to it in situ. Is it absolutely necessary? No, because most peopel get enough carbohydrate into their systems as a matter of general course. However, taking creatine fasted is missing the point.

There is also some work on how creatine is absorbed by the body, indicating that a carb-induced insulin response actually improves creatine update, too...

Besides, post-workout (and normally post-10mile cycling commute) I need some carbs to get me supplied for the journey home! :)
 
Well..hence my saying "absolutely required" :p I personally have it at breakfast along with whatever I'm eating. I guess I never particularly do fasting so that's part of why I haven't had any issues.

Also, my "having it with porridge is fine" was kind of out of place - obviously I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't a carb :) It was more in response to the "what kind of carbs?" question.
 
FrenchTart said:
Well..hence my saying "absolutely required" :p I personally have it at breakfast along with whatever I'm eating. I guess I never particularly do fasting so that's part of why I haven't had any issues.

Also, my "having it with porridge is fine" was kind of out of place - obviously I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't a carb :) It was more in response to the "what kind of carbs?" question.
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*chuckles* :D

There are solid reasons why carbohydrate intake with creatine is important for it to work as effectively as it can.

This also has the fun side effect of increasing the water retention within skeletal muscle... particularly useful after a big chest'n'bize session. :cool:

Says he, who hasn't worked chest in around... errr... a while. :o
 
mrthingyx said:
*chuckles* :D

There are solid reasons why carbohydrate intake with creatine is important for it to work as effectively as it can.

This also has the fun side effect of increasing the water retention within skeletal muscle... particularly useful after a big chest'n'bize session. :cool:

Says he, who hasn't worked chest in around... errr... a while. :o
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To be honest when I've read around and I'm struggling to find the evidence to point to creatine massively benefiting from simultaneous carbohydrate intake. This is the issue I had with it last time when I tried to research it.

I'm not doubting what you or anyone is saying (at least, not much:p) but normally when you guys give advice I can very easily find reputable evidence that supports what you're saying. I'm probably just missing something but for the creatine+carbs side of thing I haven't had much luck so far.
 
Use www.sciencedirect.com - it's pretty comprehensive if you know what you're looking for and have strong Google-fu.

I did a massive post on supplements around 18-24 months ago that will be buried in this thread somewhere with all the references and whatnot, but I can't be bothered to dig it out, I'm afraid... :(

There isn't much difference if you're not a powerlifter/weightlifter (i.e. lifting between 1-5RM), but I do it for the water retention, anyway. ;) :D

And yes: I'm now cycling. ;) :D
 
mrthingyx said:
Use www.sciencedirect.com - it's pretty comprehensive if you know what you're looking for and have strong Google-fu.

I did a massive post on supplements around 18-24 months ago that will be buried in this thread somewhere with all the references and whatnot, but I can't be bothered to dig it out, I'm afraid... :(

There isn't much difference if you're not a powerlifter/weightlifter (i.e. lifting between 1-5RM), but I do it for the water retention, anyway. ;) :D

And yes: I'm now cycling. ;) :D
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Fair enough. I don't expect you to go digging through everything every time someone doubts something :)

I'll have a look around SD today if I get time. Obviously I'm not confident that it's completely unimportant or anything like that.
 
One More Solo said:
Worst stomach cramps ever last night, thinking it's the creatine even though I dissolved it in hot water prior to taking it. Going to up my water intake and see if it helps.
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Launch it in a shake and drink it that way .. I've never had stomach cramps I've recently been using Creapure as apposed to standard stuff just goes down better and its still inexpensive really for the extra purity.
 
One More Solo said:
Worst stomach cramps ever last night, thinking it's the creatine even though I dissolved it in hot water prior to taking it. Going to up my water intake and see if it helps.
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I've literally never had stomach cramps from it and I've experimented with taking quite a lot.

What's your water intake like at the moment and how much will you be upping it to? For reference I probably drink about 4-5 litres a day, ish. I'm a very thirsty person though...

mrthingyx said:
*First pump*

My search is strong on this forum...

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=22659930&postcount=6306
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Okay. I've read through the full paper for the abstract you quoted about creatine uptake being improved by carbohydrates (and also the referenced papers that talk about taking creatine with insulin, carbs or carbs+protein). Interesting stuff.

From what I've understood the primary effect on the amount of creatine that makes it into intramuscular stores is caused by having an insulin spike around the time of creatine ingestion (and possibly the amount of insulin increase isn't that big a factor according to ref. 59, though I'm making a bit of a leap there). Given that protein can also cause an insulin spike (I think? Feel free to correct me) is it not also feasible that having some protein instead of carbs could also improve creatine uptake?

I saw no reference to a study that talked about just taking just protein with creatine. I'm interested really because some mornings my (first, and around the time of my creatine intake) breakfast is just a protein shake with minimal amounts of carbs and obviously a reasonable amount of protein.
 
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Protein does cause an insulin spike, yes.

I've seen a couple of theories as to the why of this which points to an initial very rapid breakdown of protein into carbohydrate... something particularly relevant for whey brotein.

Practically, the question remains one of discipline: can Joe Average maintain a consistent, methodical optimal dose of X over time to mirror a scientific study? Probably not. So it comes down to how does a person reap the majority of the benefits from an uncontrolled structure?

Crystallising an answer is the only 'effective' way of doing that:

1) Creatine by itself is awesome (particularly for vegetarians and vegans);
2) Creatine with carbs is double awesome;
3) Creatine with brotein and carbs is also double awesome;
4) Creatine with brotein alone might be awesome but there's nothing positively asserting this position... but there is nothing detracting, either.

That is generally how I'd cut it... with a razor blade. And a rolled up £50.
 
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