Suzuka Circuit -JAPANESE Grand Prix 2009 - Race 15/17
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
Singapore GP video is now up @ http://www.formula1.com/video/
can tell it was a boring race when 1/4 of the vid is highlights of the gig.
Look at the times between the drivers when Rubens was first over the line compared to JB - in free air this will highlight the difference between the two
Starting further back also makes it more likely that x driver will be affected by crashes or being crashed into (apart from Spa where it seems to happen throughout the grid anyway and not just at the 1st corner)
Yeah!
This is basically for FrankJH et al, as a peace offering and because I think it's highly amusing given what we know now. This is a sunama quote from the Bahrain '09 thread:
But of course, we know now that he is indeed "that" bad and that he went as far as to crash deliberately in a race. I'd love to know exactly what sunama thinks about this one, but I suspect that since he only selectively reads my posts then I'll never get to know. Hey ho.
I've said before that if Button takes the title this year (and he should, unless the RBR car is truly epic in the final two rounds and the Brawns are nowhere) I'll go back through the forum and quote every single disparaging comment sunama has made about Button. Every fibre of my being is getting antsy at the prospect
Says something about my (remarkably warped) sense of humour I guess.
But of course, we know now that he is indeed "that" bad and that he went as far as to crash deliberately in a race. I'd love to know exactly what sunama thinks about this one, but I suspect that since he only selectively reads my posts then I'll never get to know. Hey ho.
I've said before that if Button takes the title this year (and he should, unless the RBR car is truly epic in the final two rounds and the Brawns are nowhere) I'll go back through the forum and quote every single disparaging comment sunama has made about Button. Every fibre of my being is getting antsy at the prospect
Says something about my (remarkably warped) sense of humour I guess.No prost mansell and senna didn't consistently outscore their team mates. After all both senna and prost beat each other in the same team and car
This is why in my original statement I stated that the top drivers such as Mansell, et all can outscore their team-mates consistently, EXCEPT EACHOTHER.
We saw this in 2007 where Alonso and Hamilton were unable to outscore eachother. In fact, they finished on identical points.
I think you enjoy arguing. But anyway lets go...
I havent looked at the stats, but from what I recall, Prost have serious car problems during this period. The fact that he was outscored by Hill was not based purely on performance. My arguement was also be that Prost was in his final year of F1 and was no longer prepared to take unnecessary chances.
Right. Mansell beaten in a Ferrari where MAJOR shenanigans were taking place. There were points during that season where Mansell would go fast in qualifying. Prost would then (overnight) have his and Mansell's cars swapped. If Mansell went slower, then fine. If Mansell went faster still, (overnight), Mansell would have his car swapped over again. This had major effects on Mansell's performance, while he was at Ferrari with Prost.
The mid-80s were when Mansell was improving. He never arrived in a blaze of glory like Senna or Hamilton. He improved gradually. But when he reached the top, he was awesome and could then be classed as a top-line driver.
Piquet in his time, for those who don't know, would be the equivalent of Alonso or Hamilton. Triple World Champion, which neither Alonso or Hamilton are currently.
Now if you look at Button. This is HIS year. This is his best year and this year he is now losing ground to his team-mate. Furthermore, he hasnt lost ground due to unreliability or similar. He has had 1 DNF (which is pretty damn good). The simple thing is that he is losing ground in qualifying, which is affecting his race performance.
EDIT: I shall pull some facts regarding Berger VS Mansell, as by then, Mansell should've been able to outscore Berger, but I'm a little busy right now.
I havent looked at the stats, but from what I recall, Prost have serious car problems during this period. The fact that he was outscored by Hill was not based purely on performance. My arguement was also be that Prost was in his final year of F1 and was no longer prepared to take unnecessary chances.
Right. Mansell beaten in a Ferrari where MAJOR shenanigans were taking place. There were points during that season where Mansell would go fast in qualifying. Prost would then (overnight) have his and Mansell's cars swapped. If Mansell went slower, then fine. If Mansell went faster still, (overnight), Mansell would have his car swapped over again. This had major effects on Mansell's performance, while he was at Ferrari with Prost.
The mid-80s were when Mansell was improving. He never arrived in a blaze of glory like Senna or Hamilton. He improved gradually. But when he reached the top, he was awesome and could then be classed as a top-line driver.
Piquet in his time, for those who don't know, would be the equivalent of Alonso or Hamilton. Triple World Champion, which neither Alonso or Hamilton are currently.
Now if you look at Button. This is HIS year. This is his best year and this year he is now losing ground to his team-mate. Furthermore, he hasnt lost ground due to unreliability or similar. He has had 1 DNF (which is pretty damn good). The simple thing is that he is losing ground in qualifying, which is affecting his race performance.
EDIT: I shall pull some facts regarding Berger VS Mansell, as by then, Mansell should've been able to outscore Berger, but I'm a little busy right now.
JRS, I still stand by my comment. Piquet isn't as bad as Renault/Alonso made him look.
The guy is young, he was under immense pressure whereby his departure was constantly being discussed by the press in the run up to every race weekend. This cannot be nice for any driver. He was lacking confidence. This mental state meant that he tending to spin more than any driver.
The fact that he crashed his car - he was only following team orders and this does not make him a bad driver.
Unfortunately, people now expect every new driver to perform to a high standard in their debut season and this is not easy to do. Yes, Hamilton did so, but Hamilton is something extraordinary.
You cannot base the ultimate performance of Piquet, on what you saw at Renault. Had he gone to a back of the grid team, first, then moved to better teams later in his career, he would've done much better, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing and as such, his career in F1 is pretty much dead.
Yet his race pace is unbelievably quicker than Rubens'... considering Jenson has had to come from further back on the grid compared to Rubens for the most part of the second half of this season, and THEN be able to outperform him for downright pace, would suggest to me, at least, that he is performing as a better racing driver than Rubens.
You only have to watch the Germany video from the F1 website and you'll see how disappointed Ross looks when watching Ruben's getting overtaken and outpaced by other competitors.
No one is expecting Grosjean or Algueshari to work miracles are they?
As far as raw pace and talent go, I'll grant you - he isn't as bad a driver as a cursory glance would indicate. You don't get all the way to F1 if you're completely crap these days - the ghost of Taki Inoue's career has long since left the building. But looking at the package as a whole, and remembering the fact that he deliberately crashed his race car just to try and save his ******* job....well, I'm sure we can all agree that if it was a lapse in judgement it was a pretty ******* enormous one. Personally, I think it was the last act of a Formula 1 career steeped in ineptitude. Like McLaren, he couldn't even cheat without it being obvious enough (even for the FIA) to work out what had gone on with a bit of prodding.
Had he the slightest bit of brains/balls/pride/combination thereof he'd have told Renault to go **** themselves. He didn't, and proved himself to be "that" bad.
Yep each other and I showed your magical 6 race spread where Prost was beaten by Hill and Mansell was beaten by Berger.
You want it both ways, to argue with a flimsy set of facts and then deny them when the same flimsy facts are thrown back at you. Atleast try and be consistent.
Pot kettle black.
Keep your berger mansell stats I already know how to manipulate figures to make a driver look bad or great. But as you say my stats from 87 and 89 don't count because mansell got better as he got older lol. Maybe Jenson will too
I think mansell got worse personally, the car got better. Titles he really deserved he lost, the one he won was pretty farcial but made up for the poor luck.It might just be me but that post looks a lot like a list of ifs and buts, surely the points speak for themselves?The points totals are factual, as you earlier suggested, no?
Exactly he only wants iffy stats or Facts his way.
- Joined
- 30 Jul 2006
- Posts
- 12,130
... a whole year later, some months after it was pointed out to Charlie Whiting who informed Mosley and the FIA chose to look the other way and they only decided to do something when Piquet made it 100% clear that he was going to kick up a stink.
Maybe the FIA really had actually spotted Renault cheating last year and for commercial reasons chose to ignore it . . . MAYBE.
Let's face it, the FIA will put up with pretty much anything from Renault in order to keep them in F1 - cf Rodney Teflonso and his Renault Robin
Personally, I thought Hamilton was doing great in even the early season. He was consistently outscoring his team mate even in a 'dog of a car'. Just look at Australia - he hauled that car up to, erm, 3rd place... but then we all know what happened when his team and slightly himself let us all down.
Obviously now they've turned it around and it is a race winning car. But hey... I guess nobody can ever say "Hamilton isn't a good car developer" any more
Obviously now they've turned it around and it is a race winning car. But hey... I guess nobody can ever say "Hamilton isn't a good car developer" any more
Don
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 17,038
- Location
- In a house
Personally, I thought Hamilton was doing great in even the early season. He was consistently outscoring his team mate even in a 'dog of a car'. Just look at Australia - he hauled that car up to, erm, 3rd place... but then we all know what happened when his team and slightly himself let us all down.
Obviously now they've turned it around and it is a race winning car. But hey... I guess nobody can ever say "Hamilton isn't a good car developer" any more
Exactly, the advantage he has in the position he is in, is that he has the time to learn, and a team who are willing to help teach him about developing a car. This seasons slump and subsequant rise will be worth more to him in the future years than winning a championship in a dominant car ever will